Advice sought from tradesmen about a tradesman!

[FoxtrotOscar]

Hi

About two years ago, my wife and I had our bathroom refitted by local tradesmen (a couple of installers, plasterer, tiler and electrician, all working for the same company). All seemed well apart from some niggles with the shower pump, however in the last few months, floor tiles have started cracking and the shower pump has burnt out. We have a vented system with a hot cylinder. The pump is located at the end of the bath at the opposite end to the cylinder, which is in the airing cupboard.

I'm after advice on a course of action and whether or not to bother mentioning the issues to the tradesman, whose warranty was one year parts and labour. You might say I have no leg to stand on, only please read this before making your mind up.

The shower pump was a Grundfos Watermill Niagara 2.0 bar. Bit noisy, but nice and 'gushy' and reasonably cheap. Since day one however, it's had some niggles.

It would sometimes make whining noises when we started showering, noises that to me point to water starvation or excess air in the supply (or both). This could be mitigated by holding the shower head very low in the bath and slowly turning the shower valve from cold to hot when we first used the pump.

It also cycled once whenever basin taps were shut off. E.g. run the bathroom basin hot tap, switch it off, pump switches itself on for half a second then turns off again. Occasionally it would carry on cycling until I switch off the pump at the isolator switch. We then got used to switching it on for a shower then off straight after.

So following the failure, I did some reading of Grundfos installation documents and investigated the pipework. The installer has:

- Used 15mm piping on the input and output (insufficient flow).
- Used unsecured (but stiff) plastic piping from the airing cupboard to the pump at the end of the bath (potentially provoking the water hammering effect?).
- Teed off the hot water vent pipe from the cylinder for the hot supply, rather than using a dedicated feed to the cylinder via an Essex or Surrey flange (encouraging air in supply).

I am led to believe that the above is classified as an incorrect installation and that he should have used a dedicated feed for hot and cold, a flange to minimise air uptake by the pump, and 22mm pipe for certainly input and preferably output also.

The second issue is the floor tiles. In the past few months, they've started cracking. The lines of the cracks seem to follow the floorboard joists. I remember them saying they used waterproof ply or something but surely they shouldn't crack after two years?

What would you advise I do, both in terms of whetehr or not to raise the above with the installer, and how to fix it myself if I have no recourse with him? Am I up the creek as I should have kicked up a stink sooner? Or do I have some comeback as he seemingly bodged it? We grinned and bared it all this time as they were only minor niggles.

The only other relevant pieces of information I can think of, are that we have no immersion heater and the cylinder thermostat is set to 60 degrees C.

Hoping you can help,

Oscar.

 

[expertgasman]

The obvious thing to do is arrange for the owner of the company to call on you. Have a list of your issues, and your investigative findings. Keep calm, keep to the point, be pleasant, but have a notebook to hand so he knows you are serious and makig notes. Don't make threats, and don't keep making extraneous comments, or quote "Bill from the pub".

Only after hearing what he has to say can you begin to think about legal action, but the notes you make could be invaluable, if you decide to go legal.

He may surprise you and offer to make amends.

Good luck.

 

[FoxtrotOscar]

Thank you for your reply. I semi-expected a closed shop in here . I will certainly be remaining calm and civil with him, no point anyone getting over-emotional, especially since I made contact with him with his wife who works at the same company I do.

But the point is...you think I have a leg to stand on after two years? I don't want it to go legal for the above reason.

Everything was finished to an apparently high standard, it's only now that issues are beginning to come out of the woodwork such as inadequate pipe diameter and incorrect taking off of supply.

 

[expertgasman]

You almost certailny have a case under consumer right laws, particularly where you can provide evidence that work has been carried out contrary to published requirements, which you seem able to do.

However, none of us here are experts at law, and you need to explore this avenue. Unfortunately, Trading Standards are useless, and CAB's are being cut back.

 

[1john]

Try him, I would go back and sort this job out for a customer, although I would say that wouldn't I. If this is a job in a domestic privatly owned and occupied residence then you should be expecting to get ten years minimum from a new install, and more than likely it would be there in good order until you decide to replace it. The pump may just need replacing, these type of mechanical items should be expected to fail, the flooring however shouldn't although if it is cracking then perhaps the preperation and ground work were not up to spec. Very hard to comment without knowing the ins and outs of the job and the spec but I would say to call him and have a chat, tell him whats occurred, he may be quite ameanable.

 

[Alarm]

One yrs warranty, when did the problems start? In year 1?

2 years after and you want to claim, i`m no solicitor but your out of warranty period are you not?
Certainly ask what they can do, cannot see what they are "obliged" to do really.

If you had issues in yrear 1, why were they not raised?

 

[expertgasman]

One yrs warranty, when did the problems start? In year 1?

2 years after and you want to claim, i`m no solicitor but your out of warranty period are you not?
Certainly ask what they can do, cannot see what they are "obliged" to do really.

If you had issues in yrear 1, why were they not raised?

I yr warranty does not override UK consumer rightd laws.

 

[Onetap]

One yrs warranty, when did the problems start? In year 1?

2 years after and you want to claim, i`m no solicitor but your out of warranty period are you not??

You are entitled to expect the goods to last a 'reasonable' period of time. Would you expect to renew your bathroom tiles and fittings every 2 years? The liability for negligence (which this may be) is 15 years.

Ask nicely, some contractors would feel obliged to rectify it.

 

[namsag]

Re the shower does the instructions actually ask for 22mm pipes as opposed the 15mm ones used.

Nothing up with teeing into the cylinder outlet for the hot water providing it is on the vertical section and is the first outlet after the open vent and at least 150mm below this, its how all manufacturers used to ask for it and never gave air problems but will if not fitted to that standard

Cold should be from seperate connection on the supply tank and below the level of the connection that feeds the cylinder so that hot runs out first and you dont get scolded if tank empties.

Cylinder stat at 60 will mean water at top of cylinder will be above this which can cause cavitation within the shower pump and cause wear.

Just giving you info before you jump in not defending how it may have been fitted .

Some parts have more than a standard 1 year g`tee what does grunfoss site say
Something seriously wrong with way tiles have been done if they are cracking

 

[bengasman]

Whether or not you are legally in the right to claim at this stage is rather unsure, and even if you were, you'd have a hard time proving it.
Your best option seems to be to contact the company in a polite and professional way whilst being firm and convincing.
List the problems in a factual manner ( without whinging about it ) and see what happens.

 

[Onetap]

Nothing up with teeing into the cylinder outlet for the hot water providing it is on the vertical section and is the first outlet after the open vent and at least 150mm below this, its how all manufacturers used to ask for it and never gave air problems but will if not fitted to that standard.

Cylinder stat at 60 will mean water at top of cylinder will be above this which can cause cavitation within the shower pump and cause wear.

I do not think that the pump should be connected to the cylinder outlet, but the installation instructions will be the definitive answer; either it is in accordance with those instructions or it is not.

The use of 15mm pipe may also contribute to cavitation, due to the excessive pressure loss and low pressure at the pump inlet. Cavitation will chew bits out of the impeller.

 

[Agile]

My view is that the shower pump was not installed correctly and that could/did cause air to be sucked in. That was an obvious installer error which would not get better with time and should over rule any one year warrantee.

What I dont know though was the mode of failure of the pump. Most have a two year warrantee but that requires they are correctly installed. Even if it has failed for another reason the warrantee will be voided by how its been fitted.

The tiling is another problem. Nor do I know how it was fitted. All I can say is that its normal to use 10mm WPB plywood over floorboards and usually thats adequate.

If the tiles were installed like that and still some cracked then I would not rate the installer as at fault PROVIDING the floor boards did not indicate any other problem which would need special measures to have been taken.

I agree that you should talk to them nicely and see what they will do. However, unless you had an expert to write a damming report and take them to court then your chance of success would be limited after so long. So better to just accept it as one of thses things and pay to put it right.

Tony

Tony

 

[FoxtrotOscar]

Thanks a lot guys all views are appreciated, a balanced viewpoint is what I needed.

I have sent the installer a friendly email asking for his advice and saying that I'll call him tomorrow, so he has a chance to digest. I've come from the angle of asking for advice rather than demanding this that and the other.

The tiles are bearable if they don't get any worse and I can easily just do a swap for a £100 Salamander 1.5 bar pump. If that lasts two more years I'll still be happy as the cost was about £2k less than anyone else quoted. Installer will probably say it's cause of cheap tiles and bad luck with the pump anyway.

If he says that then that's where it ends, as the legal route is not an option. I may or may not bother paying someone else to do it properly.

The pump made funny screeching noises then there was a burning smell. I'm fairly sure the installer used one layer of 10mm WBP ply straight onto the joists.

One thing I will certainly do is turn the cylinder stat down to 50!

 

[FoxtrotOscar]

Here is a copy of the installation instructions:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...JXAQ6T4oiC5AcuP7oyyEYo&hl=en&authkey=CJ3Qio4K

The documents states the following on page 4:

"The use of a Surrey flange (see fig. 2, page 12) is recommended
to ensure a free-flowing supply of air-free hot water.

The hot-water supply may be taken directly from the top of the
hot-water cylinder, but entrapped air may cause problems.

22 mm copper pipe should be used to ensure an adequate flow to
the pump. Where high flows are expected, 28 mm is
recommended."

So Surrey flange is recommended but not required. To me though that reads as saying 22mm pipework is required.

It also says "The cold-water supply to the pump must be connected using
22 mm pipe to the cold-water storage tank." which hasn't happened.

 

[Agile]

The cold water seperate supply is asked for on a technical basis.

Its not just a cold connection but one which is fitted just below the hot take off.

That has two purposes. Since most pumps detect a flow on the cold it prevents the pump working on hot only and scalding you.

I rarely deal with shower pumps because they are so problematic although I have to agree thats usually because they are not properly installed.

Tony

Edited to correct.