Advice sought from tradesmen about a tradesman!

[FoxtrotOscar]

Thanks for that.

I've just had another look and it gets better...the cold for the pump is taken off the supply for the cylinder! So while the shower is on, the cylinder is merrily draining faster than it should be.

So many things wrong with this install, beginning to wish I'd paid a proper amount for a proper job.

 

[expertgasman]

Its not just a cold connection but one which is fitted just above the hot take off.

That has two purposes. Since most pumps detect a flow on the cold it prevents the pump working on hot only and scalding you.

Secondly it stops the pump running out of hot water when still power on by a CW flow. If the pump runs dry like that it quickly fails the seals.

I'm not a plumber (GSE), but I'm fairly sure that is wrong. When I did do that type of work, the cold feed was BELOW the hot take off. If the CWS empties, you want to run out of hot first. hink aboout it, Tony.

Or am I wrong, people

 

[expertgasman]

[quote="FoxtrotOscar";p="1957769"]Thanks for that.

So many things wrong with this install, beginning to wish I'd paid a proper amount for a proper job.[/quote]

Tony's been to bust sucking up to the OP to slag him off for this!

 

[Agile]

Sorry thats right , the cold needs to be below the hot take off to prevent showering in hot only. ( Although doing that could allow the hot side of the pump to run dry. )

I did look at three pump makers instructions, one showed but did not say, another said but did not show and only Stuart Turner both said and showed on the drawing!

As I said, I try to stay clear of shower pumps because of their poor reliability, particularly my experiences of Triton products.

 

[expertgasman]

Sorry thats right , the cold needs to be below the hot take off to prevent showering in hot only. ( Although doing that could allow the hot side of the pump to run dry. )

Maybe i should take up plumbing. Sorry, Tony, thats a reversal of Thatcherite proportions

 

[Agile]

Its stated to be about 25 mm ( probably thought of as one inch! )

Hardly a Thatcherite proportion!

She sent our forces 7913 miles to the Falklands ( and in spite of the operational difficulties they managed to win against the Argis based only 250 miles away! )

 

[FoxtrotOscar]

The guy replied to my email and said that he'll speak to his merchants 'to see if there's anything they can do to help you. In the mean time please give me the model number of your pump.'

It's something I suppose.

But I'm thinking he'll be helping you not me, because if he gets nowhere, I have to call Grundfos round to take a look and if they state that the installation was insufficient, I'll a) be paying for their visit and b) paying for a new pump, all the while with an unsuitable install damaging the replacement pump I've had to shell out for.

He's coming round in a week to check the floor but I'm guessing he'll play the cheap tiles card.

Just to pick up on the point that Alarm raised, I mentioned the issues to the installer very soon after the install was completed, but he just kept saying he'd never had any problems with his methods and it must be niggles with the system. I mentioned the pulsing on other taps being used, the water starvation and the sound of air in the pump. Knowing at that time absolutely NOTHING about plumbing, I took him at his word. Silly me.

namsag, many thanks for that. To address your points:

- Installation manual requires 22mm supply pipes.
- He hasn't teed off the vertical vent pipe for the hot supply. He seems to have teed off at the bottom where the hot cylinder fed the bath (before pump fed bath).
- He teed off for the cold above the hot water cylinder from the cylinder supply pipe, using 15mm pipe and a 90 degree elbow.
- Grundfos site states two years warranty for this pump. Ours is just over that.
- Cylinder stat now turned down to 50.

What do you think of my draft reply?

"Hi

The model number is STC-2.0 C. It’s a Grundfos Watermill Niagara 2.0 bar. There’s another number on top of the pump: xxx. I assume this is the serial number. Thanks for your help with this.

If you have no luck with the merchants, I guess I’d have to get someone from Grundfos round to have a look, but the concern I have with that is that the installation manual states that a dedicated feed with 22mm pipes must be used for supply, with an Essex or Surrey flange to the hot tank to avoid sucking air into the pump. If Grundfos try and wriggle out based on this then I’ll end up paying for their visit as well as a new pump, and potentially replacement pipework to satisfy the warranty in case it breaks again. I notice that the Salamander technical documents require 22mm supply pipes also. I know you say you’ve had no other issues, but that fact won’t help me if Grundfos reject warranty claims due to a non-compliant installation.

Regards"

 

[expertgasman]

What do you think of my draft reply?

Hi

The model number is STC-2.0 C. It’s a Grundfos Watermill Niagara 2.0 bar. There’s another number on top of the pump: xxx. I assume this is the serial number. Thanks for your help with this.

If you have no luck with the merchants, I guess I’d have to get someone from Grundfos round to have a look, but the concern I have with that is that the installation manual states that a dedicated feed with 22mm pipes must be used for supply, with an Essex or Surrey flange to the hot tank to avoid sucking air into the pump. If Grundfos try and wriggle out based on this then I’ll end up paying for their visit as well as a new pump, and potentially replacement pipework to satisfy the warranty in case it breaks again. I notice that the Salamander technical documents require 22mm supply pipes also. I know you say you’ve had no other issues, but that fact won’t help me if Grundfos reject warranty claims due to a non-compliant installation.I am sorry, but you are being a little too kind! How DID you get the wquote for 2K less than offered elsewhere?

My version:
[iThe model number is STC-2.0 C. It’s a Grundfos Watermill Niagara 2.0 bar. There’s another number on top of the pump: xxx. I assume this is the serial number. Thanks for your help with this.

If you have no luck with the merchants, I guess you will to get someone from Grundfos round to have a look, but the concern I have with that is that the installation manual states that a dedicated feed with 22mm pipes must be used for supply, with an Essex or Surrey flange to the hot tank to avoid sucking air into the pump. If Grundfos decide that the method opf installation has caused premature wear to the pump, you will end up paying for their visit as well as a new pump, as well replacement pipework to satisfy the warranty in case it breaks again.

I notice that the Salamander technical documents require 22mm supply pipes also. I know you say you’ve had no other issues, but that fact claim won’t help you if Grundfos reject warranty claims due to a non-compliant installation.

I am just pointing these factors out, as I wouldn't like this situation and your costs to escalate any further than neccessary, but I would also point out that I contacted you soon after the install.

Regards"[/quote]

 

[FoxtrotOscar]

Thanks expertgasman. I actually just replied with the model number for the moment. He is coming round next week so will point out said issues at the time and use language that more firmly shows that I consider him responsible for remedial work.

FYI I have made a PowerPoint sketch of the layout used in the install. Hopefully this will give a clearer view of how the pipework has been done.

 

[pampers]

I'll still be happy as the cost was about £2k less than anyone else quoted.

And there was no alarm bells at this point !

 

[FoxtrotOscar]

Not really as I'd had recommendations through people at work, his was the most detailed quote, and he has a website full of examples of his work. That and his attitude inspired confidence, apparently misplaced. Also he didn't charge me VAT to bring the price down.

 

[longdogs]

Your tiles would crack if the adhesive used was not 'flexible'.

 

[FoxtrotOscar]

Hi all

These photos might make the installation method seem a bit clearer.

The cold water take off is visible in the top left (15mm elbow):

The hot coming out of the top of the boiler runs through to the bathroom at which point he has diverted the supply from what was the hot tap, to the pump at the end of the bath.

 

[expertgasman]

Surely, if for some reason you HAD to tee into the hot water rather than using a flange, you wouldn't tee there! (remember I don't claim to be a plumber, so don't be too harsh)

 

[moggridgeplumbing]

Pump connections incorrectly fitted. Both hot and cold feed not to suggested connection points. ie hot first draw off cylinder/flange connection and cold separate feed from cold water tank. Hence the problems you are having.

The only pump I know that is forgiving when incorrectly fitted is a Stuart & Turner, although I wouldn't think S&T would survive your setup. Salamander I'm not a fan of.