Am i within 'the law'

[DetlefSchmitz]

John (W2):

You are right - I saw something which wasn't there - probably because I'd just been watching the Royal Institute Christmas Lectures on the brain.

The main problem I see is that this is a fixed installation (conduit) in an outside location.

 

[westie101]

Or is it providing additional protection to the flex to increase safety?

 

[JohnW2]

Or is it providing additional protection to the flex to increase safety?

It's obviously doing that - but I also think that it might be difficult to argue (particularly in the face of some jobsworths) that cable of any sort within conduit wasn't 'fixed'.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[westie101]

Well the conduit is fixed, but a length of flex can easily be pulled out! As it can be pulled out of a hole through a wall or door frame.

As for the smaller cable sizes, use an FCU with a 3A fuse as the junction box and to feed them

 

[JohnW2]

Well the conduit is fixed, but a length of flex can easily be pulled out! As it can be pulled out of a hole through a wall or door frame.

I'm not disagreeing but, as I said, can see plenty of scope for argument there! Mind you, if one end of that flex is terminated in a JB or FCU, then you're not going to be able to pull it out too easily - so maybe it's then 'fixed'?!

As for the smaller cable sizes, use an FCU with a 3A fuse as the junction box and to feed them

That obviously is the 'proper' approach, certainly if the cables of some of the loads are not up to 13A (or 10A, or whatever teh fuse in the plug) - although there could be issues of strain relief (and maybe also terminal capacity) with the number of cables/conductors possibly involved.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[gno750]

I use conduit for three 3 reasons really
1. It looks better than a piece of wire clipped to the wall
2. Trying to clip to pebbledash or weak mortar is a nightmare.
3. I thought you had to conceal/sheath electrical cable below a certain height.

In answer to a previous post the lighting cable i use is 0.75 round 3 core, this cable is already on the light track but it i have to extend it i would use the same cable size .. the fuse at the 3 pin plug varies depending on what items i have going to it .. one awning & one light track I'd put a 5amp fuse in, an awning by itself only needs a 3amp... anything with a single heater needs a 13amp.

 

[Aragorn84]

The point is that if you've used a 13A fuse because there is a heater, the lighting cable is then not adequately protected.

 

[JohnW2]

I use conduit for three 3 reasons really...

.
I don't think anyone would disagree with conduit being a good idea. The question is whether this renders it notifiable work under Part P of the building regulations.

In answer to a previous post the lighting cable i use is 0.75 round 3 core, this cable is already on the light track but it i have to extend it i would use the same cable size .. the fuse at the 3 pin plug varies depending on what items i have going to it .. one awning & one light track I'd put a 5amp fuse in, an awning by itself only needs a 3amp... anything with a single heater needs a 13amp.

Even without any de-rating because of the conduit (and/or multiple cables in same conduit, if that applies), if you had a 13A fuse, the minimum accessable size for any of the cables protected by it would be 1.25mm² - so you have a problem there with the junction box approach when you have a heater. As has been suggested, that lighting cable probably needs protecting by a 3A (maybe 5A) fuse (in a fused connection unit) - or, of course, if there is another socket available, a separate plug with a 3A fuse.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[westie101]

Or a double socket extension lead.

As regards the argument of the conduit making it fixed wiring.
Fitting LCD or Plasma TV's to a wall is quite common, often householders use trunking or oval conduit to tidy up flex (and aerial wires) goint to the TV. Does this make it fixed wiring? If not, why does the situation described here become fixed wiring?

 

[gno750]

Would a problem with the way i install these items have shown up by now? as stated i've been doing it this way for over 8 years.
With a couple of hundred installations a year (but probably only 20% with heaters) surely a problem would have arisen by now.

All installations have a 5 years guarantee & i've never been back for any blown lighting transformers or burnt out cable.
Have i just been lucky??

 

[JohnW2]

Or a double socket extension lead.

True but, quite apart from any question of regs, I don't think that this would be ideal practice for something which is clearly a 'permanent installation', whether or not the wiring is technically 'fixed', do you?

As regards the argument of the conduit making it fixed wiring. Fitting LCD or Plasma TV's to a wall is quite common, often householders use trunking or oval conduit to tidy up flex (and aerial wires) goint to the TV. Does this make it fixed wiring? If not, why does the situation described here become fixed wiring?

Quite - but you're asking the wrong person - I don't know how silly people can get in interpreting Part P.

I would add that no-one yet seems to have asked the OP where these awnings are being installed - most replies seem to have assumed that they are in domestic dwellings (hence Part P applying etc.) - but if they are non-domestic, then this could change things in terms of the regs.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[westie101]

Quite - but you're asking the wrong person - I don't know how silly people can get in interpreting Part P.

Sorry John, that made me chuckle!

As has been argued there is no exact definition and until a case goes to court there never will be!

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Just out of interest do these awnings come with integrated RCD protection?

 

[JohnW2]

Would a problem with the way i install these items have shown up by now? as stated i've been doing it this way for over 8 years. With a couple of hundred installations a year (but probably only 20% with heaters) surely a problem would have arisen by now. All installations have a 5 years guarantee & i've never been back for any blown lighting transformers or burnt out cable.
Have i just been lucky??

This is where, on behalf of the regulations, I almost get embarrassed. I don't think anyone here would expect you to encounter any problems in 8 years (or even 80 years) doing what you've been doing - but it certainly sounds as if your practices may not (particularly when heaters are involved) be compliant with the regulations. What that says about the regulations is a matter for philosophical debate!

Kind Regards, John.

 

[westie101]

Just out of interest do these awning come with integrated RCD protection

The OP states he installs 13A RCD plugs