Biscuit joints for windows and doors?

[odilon]

I have had some new sash windows, (external) french doors and a back door (with large glass panel) custom built on-site for my house, and it now emerges that the carpenter used biscuit joints rather than mortice and tenon. It was my understanding that the only way to properly make such joints was with mortice and tenon.

Should I insist they all be remade? Nine sash windows and two doors is a lot of time wasted. How bad is it to have a biscuit joint door?

Thanks in advance for any advice![/i]

 

[big-all]

what construction method did you specify??
buiscuits dowels molded edge contact are other methods
i always m&t and wedge

 

[odilon]

We didn't agree on the type of joint, but the man who built them disparaged others who don't use M&T, so I assumed that he would. Upon interrogation, he says he lacked a M&T jig and used a combination of biscuits, two screws, and a 22mm deep M&T-like joint. It sounds very makeshift, and not terribly convincing to me.

I don't want to tear them all out and do it again. That would be too painful. But I also don't want windows that will not last in the long-term.

What to do?

 

[big-all]

do you have a small top opener ??

i would be tempted to dismantle it to check the general strength and construction method then at worst you can putty in a bit off glass

softwood windows have a 5 to 15 years lifespan with average painting regime but non wedged construction in my opinion could cause the joins to fail before rot was the problem

i only give a 3 year life span on doweled or biscuit joins typically long enough to replace damaged rotten openers whilst they save up for new d/g
but thats just my opinion

 

[odilon]

Thanks Big all, though 3 years is not a happy prognosis.

What is a "small top opener"?

Attached is a picture of the French door frame - still not installed - the man claims the joint is nearly as good as M&T, but there is no way of knowing even if I tear it apart, no?

Do these pictures help? //www.diynot.com/network/odilon/albums/17109

Thanks

 

[crank39]

No strength in those joints whatsoever, endgrain is never anygood to screw into and i'd imagine within a short space of time those screws will lose their bite in the endgrain and the joint will open up

Whats going on with the joint in the second picture, looks like there was a mistake there and he's glued a bit of timber on, is that a line of natural coloured filler?

 

[crank39]

I wouldn't have any difficulty in telling the carpenter his work is incorrect, substandard and i demand it all to be replaced

 

[big-all]

without being unkind
i would describe it as a handyman out off his depth and not having a clue

as crank 39 said he has cut off and added on a main structural part off the styles that will have maybe around 25% off the uncut strength

unfortunately what we can see tells me he hasnt got a clue on how to complete to a acceptable standard

 

[speed]

ruff as toast

 

[gregers]

ABSOLUTELY SUPERB,NOTTTTTTTTTTTT.

wota mess.pi55 poor work.
i too spotted the mistakes/problems in the 2nd pic before reading the posts.

DEMAND your money back pronto.

 

[RogerBoyle]

Sorry but The guy does not have a clue..

I take it the price was to good to resist ??

Now you will have to pay again for them to be done properly (but not by him) .I would also guarantee that he is not a member of FENSA in which case you will need to get Building control to sign off on these windows at extra cost
However there is no way in the world they would accept them

Not sure but from your photos would I be correct in saying that the beadings are loose on Both sides
Also the joints where the rails and styles meet is already twisted slightly on the pic for the glass portion
On the French door Pic that is the bottom then you have a totally useless door that will be lucky to last a week before it drops.....

TBH I think you realise all this yourself

 

[big-all]

Thanks Big all, though 3 years is not a happy prognosis.

What is a "small top opener"?

Attached is a picture of the French door frame - still not installed - the man claims the joint is nearly as good as M&T, but there is no way of knowing even if I tear it apart, no?

Do these pictures help? //www.diynot.com/network/odilon/albums/17109

Thanks

a small top opener is usually a small window at the top the idea was to check the quality off the job causing least alteration to your windows but leaving them serviceable but because you have showed us the level off finish
he can achieve we now know he is out off his depth by some considerable margin
doors and windows as said above must be type approved as up to standard insulation wise and impact wise

as for dowels or biscuits being as good as mortice and tenons well of course not
yes they can give you very strong joins in a indoor situation with perhaps 70% strength but in my opinion only around 40% the maximum off mortice and tenon externally thus the suggestion that it would fail much quicker in an external exposed situation

 

[odilon]

Thanks everyone, for your very honest assessments. It sounds even worse than I thought.

The good news is that I haven't paid a penny yet, though the original quote was not low at all. The whole thing doesn't make sense, as a real cowboy would always insist on payment up front, right?

We really need to have the house back. Would it be totally crazy to keep these windows/doors in place and then change them all later, once we find a reliable chippy?[/b]

 

[crank39]

Good, do not pay a penny for this work - my gut feeling is the chippy already knows this and was trying to blag it hoping you'd fall for his BS

I guess if you get away with not paying anything then you haven't lost anything other than a bit of stress and a few hairs, only you know your situation regarding getting the job finished so you can get moved in, if its feasible then yes i would start looking at getting other people in i.e. like chippies with there own joinery shops with all the tools like Norms new yankee workshop

Why were the frames made on site anyway, they were never going to right?