Boiler Saga Continues - Probable Leak...(Update 24/12/20 - Trace and Access visit)

[terryplumb]

I've spoken to a couple of companies and the £700 quote included trace, access and fixing but I was not convinced with their ability to do the repair, they didn't seem to be full gas engineers, more of a trace and access expert.

The second company is £594 Inc VAT but fixing the issue is extra (£300 Inc VAT). However I got a much better sense of them actually fixing the issue. They will drain the system, inject gas, detect leak, fix leak, retest and provide full documentation. The engineers are fully gas/heating engineers but they actually give you the option to fix yourself if you'd like (I'd only entertain that option if it was extremely easy).

I'm leaning toward the more expensive option, just to get it sorted!



Can't find anything that resembles a drain off cock outside...



Thanks for that but I feel it would be a wild goose chase for me and I'd rather just get it sorted now.
The only rental places near me is Jewson and they're a bit more expensive.

I've done a little bit more testing too.

- I topped up the boiler to 1.5 bar and then isolated the downstairs heating pipes overnight. Came down at 5am this morning with the heating being on/off multiple times over night and the pressure was perfect, exactly where it was at 1.5 bar.

- This evening I topped up the boiler, bled the rads, topped up again to 1.5bar and made sure the heating wouldn't come on (to replicate pressure dropping scenario). I removed the condensing/prv pipe and put it in a bucket. Came back 90 minutes later and pressure was down to less than 0.5bar and very little water in the bucket, there was some but not much at all, presumably this could simply be latent condensed water in the pipe itself.

So there's no evidence for me to believe it's anything other than a leak in the downstairs heating pipes...

I assume the last test above ,was done with the downstairs heating pipes connected up / NOT isolated ,hence the pressure drop

 

[siross85]

I assume the last test above ,was done with the downstairs heating pipes connected up / NOT isolated ,hence the pressure drop

Yes, sorry I wasn't clear. The whole system was open, replicating the pressure drop scenario.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

That amount of water loss will be quite easy to track down by sight alone. The quote of £300 to fix the leak once found, seems way beyond excessive. It might be as simple as tightening a union, couple of minutes work, when they are on site anyway.

 

[terryplumb]

Do you have house insurance to cover these costs ? If tiled flooring or laminate has to be removed, the costs of re instatement also needs to be considered.

 

[siross85]

That amount of water loss will be quite easy to track down by sight alone. The quote of £300 to fix the leak once found, seems way beyond excessive. It might be as simple as tightening a union, couple of minutes work, when they are on site anyway.

Do you mean easy with a thermal imaging Camera? There are no obvious signs of moisture anywhere downstairs. Agree that the actual issue could be very simple to fix, it's the finding that I can't figure out.

Do you have house insurance to cover these costs ? If tiled flooring or laminate has to be removed, the costs of re instatement also needs to be considered.

Partly but it probably won't worth claiming. My insurance doesn't cover the trace and access, only remedial works. Presumably once the leak has been pinpointed the damage will be kept to a minimum and probably not worth the excess and subsequent increase in premiums. I never really knew about the value of trace and access in a policy, now I certainly do. I suppose you live and learn

 

[mcmoby69]

Youve got to wonder if some clown has left a trv under the floor when that radiator was blanked off.....

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Do you mean easy with a thermal imaging Camera? There are no obvious signs of moisture anywhere downstairs. Agree that the actual issue could be very simple to fix, it's the finding that I can't figure out.

No, I meant there will be an awful lot of water showing somewhere. Were it me, I would be finding a way to get a proper look under that floor. You will certainly be needing to be under there anyway. The thermal imaging may prove to be an unnecessary expense with an obvious and unmissable leak.

 

[terryplumb]

How many radiators are on the downstairs circuit.
You mentioned some flooring is laminate ,how much of the floor area
does that cover ? I assume there is a crawl space below the floor ,and pipes are not buried in concrete ?
I would be inclined to lift the laminate and take up a few floorboards before spending several hundred quid .

 

[ianmcd]

This evening I topped up the boiler, bled the rads, topped up again to 1.5bar and made sure the heating wouldn't come on (to replicate pressure dropping scenario). I removed the condensing/prv pipe and put it in a bucket. Came back 90 minutes later and pressure was down to less than 0.5bar and very little water in the bucket, there was some but not much at all, presumably this could simply be latent condensed water in the pipe itself.

There shouldnt have been anything in the bucket, is there any way you could seperate, the two pipes and use two buckets to see where the water is coming from ?

 

[siross85]

Youve got to wonder if some clown has left a trv under the floor when that radiator was blanked off.....

Possible I suppose. I have seen one end of the rad that's been capped off and it's fine, I can't see the other side though. The view from knocking the air brick out was quite good and there was no signs of any moisture whatsoever. I had the inspection camera in the see relatively far in and couldn't see much.

No, I meant there will be an awful lot of water showing somewhere. Were it me, I would be finding a way to get a proper look under that floor. You will certainly be needing to be under there anyway. The thermal imaging may prove to be an unnecessary expense with an obvious and unmissable leak.

That's the biggest issue, there's no space for someone to get under. Other than making educated guesses where the pipework is and opening up the floor I don't know how else to go about it?

How many radiators are on the downstairs circuit.
You mentioned some flooring is laminate ,how much of the floor area
does that cover ? I assume there is a crawl space below the floor ,and pipes are not buried in concrete ?
I would be inclined to lift the laminate and take up a few floorboards before spending several hundred quid .

There are 5 on the downstairs circtuit, 2 towel radiators, hallway, front room and open plan living room.
The majority of the floor is laminate, probably 90%, the only difference is the kitchen area of the open plan room which is tiled.
The pipes aren't buried in concrete, there is a top layer of laminate, a layer of old flooring and then floorboards, the tiled area is sitting on plywood base and then floorboards.
There is a space under the floor but not enough for a person to get under unfortunately, it's around 40cm deep.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

There is a space under the floor but not enough for a person to get under unfortunately, it's around 40cm deep.

40cms is more than adequate crawl space. Head-torch, stout boots and overalls time - you know you need to.

 

[sxturbo]

You will find a thermal imaging camera won't do as you are hoping.

If the pipes were in concrete you would be ok, but as they are in an open access under floor boards it won't work as the heat dissipation will be to much.

You could try putting uv dye in the system https://www.ringautomotive.com/en/product/RLD2 , then get a powerful UV torch from Amazon https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07WJJY1ZP/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_fabc_T4Z0FbG44F0Z3

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

You could try putting uv dye in the system https://www.ringautomotive.com/en/product/RLD2 , then get a powerful UV torch from Amazon https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07WJJY1ZP/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_fabc_T4Z0FbG44F0Z3

That is the best idea yet, but may need several bottles of dye - a home heating system has much more volume than that of a car.

 

[sxturbo]

That is the best idea yet, but may need several bottles of dye - a home heating system has much more volume than that of a car.

One vial does 10ltrs, not sure how to work out the capacity of water in each radiator.

 

[bernardgreen]

40cms is more than adequate crawl space. Head-torch, stout boots and overalls time - you know you need to.

For an experienced person who will not get a panic attack 40 cm could be adequate. Ripping up floor boards to release a person will be expensive and traumatic.