We're considering removing a wall between a kitchen and living room in a late '70s/early '80s house. The wall divides the two rooms on the ground floor, and does not continue above the ceiling (the room dividers upstairs are all studwork, and have a different layout to the downstairs walls. I've had a couple of structural engineers look at this. Both agree that the wall is not supporting vertical loads. One suggests leaving 500mm piers either side to maintain buttressing with the outside (cavity construction) wall. The other suggests the wall can be removed providing the floor is strapped to the walls. Being a belt and braces sort of chap, I'm considering doing both. Does this seem unduly cautious? I can't tell what sort of strapping if any is already present until we start pulling things apart - unless there's an easy way to tell?
buttressing and strapping
- Thread starter Northman
- Start date
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I suppose it depends whether you want a clean "single room" effect, or two separate rooms with an opening, and how much mess you want. I doubt there will be any existing strapping of floors to walls.A more experienced engineer may tell you neither is necessary.
thank you cdbe. Given that we've a fair bit of ripping out to do on the old kitchen (tiles and units) and that a full redecoration will follow, I guess that now is as good a time as any for messy work if needed. The room will be mainly kitchen one end, and living the other, so a light studwork archway between the two has crossed our minds. Equally happy with just the piers though - on one side it will be a useful ending to a run of units.
The thinking behind both reports is clearly to ensure the lateral support of the outside wall, so I'm keen that that is rock solid. What I don't really understand is if what they have indicated is a major job or not.
The thinking behind both reports is clearly to ensure the lateral support of the outside wall, so I'm keen that that is rock solid. What I don't really understand is if what they have indicated is a major job or not.
Factors to consider would also be the length of wall between return walls; and the size of door/window openings, and the width of the masonry between the openings.
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Here's a floor plan and the rear elevation. The wall in question is shown between the kitchen and the 'TV' room. At the moment there is a stud wall separating the TV and lounge rooms. We propose to move this back in line with the wall between the kitchen and hallway so that the finished larger room is of the same width the full length. The repositioned stud wall will be in line with a steel girder which is along the dotted line in the diagram, between the ceiling and upstairs floor. (The joists run parallel to the wall being removed, resting on the steel).
Apart from the studwall mentioned above, all other downstairs walls are masonry. Where the kitchen/hallway wall meets the lounge wall there is a solid pier that is supporting one end of the steel above. This is clearly a central support and is one reason why leaving a 500mm section of the wall in place as a buttress has been suggested. As noted above the task is to guarantee the lateral stability of the outside wall.
Any further thoughts would be welcome. Thank you.
Apart from the studwall mentioned above, all other downstairs walls are masonry. Where the kitchen/hallway wall meets the lounge wall there is a solid pier that is supporting one end of the steel above. This is clearly a central support and is one reason why leaving a 500mm section of the wall in place as a buttress has been suggested. As noted above the task is to guarantee the lateral stability of the outside wall.
Any further thoughts would be welcome. Thank you.
Nonesense! The very word 'buttressing' is used in Approved Doc. A Structure.
Post up some examples of a typical UK house that you know of illustrating your buttressing by internal walls.
Don't overload the Google servers in all this heat.
*T&Ss. One single obscure one-off shack from the outer Hebrides does not count.
Thanks gentlemen. I can see there is an interesting etymological discussion to be had on the varied uses of the word 'buttress' and I apologise if I've used it in other than the narrow technical meaning of lateral support to a wall. The central pillar that supports the steel beam does need to be supported in a sideways sense - that's provided by the wall either side of it, and no doubt is why the engineer would like to see part of the wall left in place at that point.
My main query though is how extensive would works to strap the floor to the walls be - if there is none currently present, and if it was thought necessary? (And thinking about it, do they mean the ground floor, or the first floor floor?). Is it a DIY job, or highly specialised?
My main query though is how extensive would works to strap the floor to the walls be - if there is none currently present, and if it was thought necessary? (And thinking about it, do they mean the ground floor, or the first floor floor?). Is it a DIY job, or highly specialised?
This is direct from the BS for Low Rise Buildings.
Anything more than 9.0m in length requires buttressing unless it can be proved to work by other methods. While it may be possible to prove buttressing isn't required for buildings longer than 9m, the additional design time means that most houses are less than 9m without buttressing or they have a spine wall or other buttressing wall somewhere along that 9m length.
Anything more than 9.0m in length requires buttressing unless it can be proved to work by other methods. While it may be possible to prove buttressing isn't required for buildings longer than 9m, the additional design time means that most houses are less than 9m without buttressing or they have a spine wall or other buttressing wall somewhere along that 9m length.
That's all lovely.
But the thing is, are there any typical homes that have been built or being built now that have buttressing internal walls? Do you know of any? Let Tony know if you do - there's a Blue Peter badge at stake.
Well, "typical" homes (ones built by the Taylor Wimpeys, Bellways etc) tend to not be more than 9m long to avoid the issue stated in the extract above. If they are, typically they will have a load-bearing buttressing wall splitting up the 9m length.
I do remember an occasion where a colleague of mine fudged the calcs to allow a greater unbuttressed length than 9m on a particular house type. It opened a big can of worms with the NHBC and building control.
Going outside of the 9m limit would mean having to prove adequacy by additional calcs, and maybe more strapping etc to provide sufficient head restraint etc.
Most engineers get a bit twitchy when altering existing buildings as removing walls will obviously make a building inherently less stable, hence the regular installation of goal post or box frames to maintain close to the same levels of stability as existing.
I know I've specified non load bearing buttressing walls on occasion - so there must be one or two
I do remember an occasion where a colleague of mine fudged the calcs to allow a greater unbuttressed length than 9m on a particular house type. It opened a big can of worms with the NHBC and building control.
Going outside of the 9m limit would mean having to prove adequacy by additional calcs, and maybe more strapping etc to provide sufficient head restraint etc.
Most engineers get a bit twitchy when altering existing buildings as removing walls will obviously make a building inherently less stable, hence the regular installation of goal post or box frames to maintain close to the same levels of stability as existing.
I know I've specified non load bearing buttressing walls on occasion - so there must be one or two
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