Caravan CU

what other electical equipment is going in the caravan?

Usual is a main RCD, 2 MCBs one 5, one 10A.
10A for sockets/heating
5A for battery charger, fridge/mains lights

water heater (around 400W) may be on either depending on the van.

you do need to use flex rather than twin and earth, would reccomend looking at the relevent bit of 7671
 
Only thing purchased so far is a 400/800w heater.

I'm assuming things like toaster/kettle but probably not at the same time.

I'm more and more tempted to go for 12V lighting rather than a mix just in case we go off track.

I'm thinking about hooking something up that allows us mains even when off track but I think the battery would last about 1 slice of toast.
 
Hmm, dont bother with heating appliances that run from mains if you dont have a hook up, just use the grill

I have a small inverter for mobile phones etc whislt off in the middle of nowhere, I also use it to mpower my sky box.

pop over to UK campsite, linked to previously, has lots of ideas of people who have done similar.
 
Only thing purchased so far is a 400/800w heater.

I'm assuming things like toaster/kettle but probably not at the same time.

I'm more and more tempted to go for 12V lighting rather than a mix just in case we go off track.

I'm thinking about hooking something up that allows us mains even when off track but I think the battery would last about 1 slice of toast.

I would have both mains and 12V lighting, for flexibility and resilience.

Inverters very handy but have quite high losses especially at low loads, not a good idea to use one for low loads like lighting or small telly if you can get direct 12V appliances. Don't ignore the 24V option as used in trucks for heavier loads.
 
OK, should have made it clearer, use the grill for the toast....

meant appliances with a heating element, toaster, kettle etc.

I would think the van has gas heating as well, unless its so old it has a wood burner!! :?

what `van is it, if you are adding 12V, you need to be aware of your load limits (weight wise) even a small leisure batt can be quite hefty...
 
Hi guys i'm wondering where i can get double pole MCB's for a caravan install?

Preferably with some very low breaking amps, 1, 3 , 6, 10.

Also what about using an RCD as the isolating switch due to space issues?

Double pole MCB's are available from 0.5A upwards but they are expensive at around £25. All electrical wholesalers should be able to supply them ok.
Using the RCD as the isolator is fine, especially as the whole thing can be unplugged from the supply.
 
The caravan must be wired in accordance with the 17th Edition Regs - BS7671 and competence is vital. Someone has to sign off the paperwork (see the NICEIC website for completion documents for mobile homes and caravans).

The easiest way around you problem is to carry a couple of spare leads wired with cross polarity and a polarity checker that will plug in inside the van. I have used these with great success and very little cost - much cheaper than installing a new CU with all the other bits, and only takes a couple of minutes to use when arriving on site.

Fitting double pole circuit breakers will not necessarily solve your problem. If the designed neutral leg of the DP breaker is only a switch and does not have the facility to detect overload like the phase side then you will still be unprotected.

Please consult a proper qualified electrician for the safety of you, your family and anyone using the caravan with you or after you. During 30+ years in the trade I have seen far too many people who think they know what they are doing and get it wrong with disastroous consequences.

Kind regards

Sparky3
 
Is reverse polarity an issue on caravan site hookups here in the UK?
I have seen reverse polarity on a caravan before but was the caravan at fault - had a daft (non ceeform) inlet on the side where the plug could be inserted either way up.
Double pole MCBs are readily available as they can be used in 3 phase boards, the regs require the overcurrent device to disconnect all live conductors which therefore includes the neutral.
In theory a SPSN MCB will disconnect on overcurrent and the RCD will disconnect an earth fault however I wouldn't like to trust it.
 
Yes but it only solves part of the issue.

You now have circuit breakers that will break both lines but look a little deeper. The light switches are now in the neutral line not the phase. 13A sockets fitted in the van are now reverse polarity, so the fuse in the plug is in the neutral not the phase.

At best some equipment will not work, at worse take the scenario that someone has something plugged in while the family is out. It develops a fault and the fuse can't blow because the polarity is incorrect. It overheats and causes a fire, or one of the children touch it and get electrocuted.

Continental plugs are not fused so it doesn't make any difference to them. DP circuit breakers will mask the problem and give a sense of false security. The only way to ensure safety with a UK wired caravan, motor home, machine etc is to ensure the polarity is correct.

I would not want to be explaining to a coroners court that "I thought it was safe". Look at the opinion of the OP about electricians. Why does he think we spend 4 years learning the trade as an apprentice before qualifying and then have to continually keep up with developments and training???

Complete jerk with that attitude!!

Kind regards

Sparky3
 
Assuming you are talking about class 2 equipment, why wouldn't a fuse blow if it is in the neutral?
If an earth fault occurs in a class 1 piece of equipment then the RCD will have to deal with it.
 
The caravan must be wired in accordance with the 17th Edition Regs - BS7671 and competence is vital. Someone has to sign off the paperwork (see the NICEIC website for completion documents for mobile homes and caravans).

The easiest way around you problem is to carry a couple of spare leads wired with cross polarity and a polarity checker that will plug in inside the van. I have used these with great success and very little cost - much cheaper than installing a new CU with all the other bits, and only takes a couple of minutes to use when arriving on site.

Surely the easiest, and probably [but only probably] safest, way is to install an isolatinng transformer followed by regular single pole MCB's or fuses but I don't believe the extra weight and expense to be of significant advantage

Fitting double pole circuit breakers will not necessarily solve your problem. If the designed neutral leg of the DP breaker is only a switch and does not have the facility to detect overload like the phase side then you will still be unprotected.
Then it would be called a DPN circuit breaker or SPSN MCB such as
http://www.voltimum.co.uk/catalogue...1/MEU-001/001/001&brand=MEU&universe=products
and not a double pole MCB.
DP MCB's are 2 SP's strapped together and therefore detect overloads in both legs and that is what the OP is asking for. such as
http://www.voltimum.co.uk/catalogue...001&catalogType=P&brand=MEU&universe=products
Seems the OP knows more about it than the sparks, as per a previous post in this topic.

Please consult a proper qualified electrician for the safety of you, your family and anyone using the caravan with you or after you. During 30+ years in the trade I have seen far too many people who think they know what they are doing and get it wrong with disastroous consequences.

Kind regards

Sparky3

Would that be a proper qualified electrician who doesn't even know what a double pole MCB is?

Sadly when it comes to anything more than a ring main or light switch:- 'During 30+ years in the trade I have seen far too many qualified electritians [especially recently with all the newer quick training schemes] who think they know what they are doing get it wrong with disastroous consequences'.

Course the simple solution could be to not install anything, just use an extension lead with a 4, 8, 12way etc socket and plug in whatever. Not the route I'd recommend but it wouldn't need to be certified :wink: :roll:
 
I don't have a copy of the Regs in front of me but I have it in the back of my mind that caravans should have double pole switching on everything.

As an aside to the discussions, the MCB is to protect against overcurrent only and as such will do its job whichever side a single pole MCB is installed, a fault to earth should be covered by the RCD. Personally I'd go with RCD and DP MCB's as the OP suggests even though its overkill.

If the fuse in the 13A plug is of such a major concern perhaps the OP should wire his caravan to 'continental' standards, replace all the existing 13A plugs and use Shuko's and simply do away with the extra fuse altogether then all rules would be adhered to and 'yes m'lud it was wired right'

BTW when caravan parks first provided mains hook-up, the standard inlet connector was indeed a reversible Shuko, I dare say if I dig deep enough I may still have one of the connectors, I tended to stock them as I replaced a few when they got broken by driving off still plugged in.
 
An RCD must be used regardless of weather an RCD is present in the hookup. An RCD main switch is the traditional way to do it.

MPEB shall be connected to any structural metalwork acciessible while inside the caravan.

Cables must be stranded core (min 7), and no smaller than 1.5mm for all circuits.

Assuming the caravan inlet is rated at 16amp, the supply flex shall be 25m, and 2.5mm.

All circuits to be fed by DP MCB's (not switched neutral types, full double pole).
 
Yes but it only solves part of the issue.

You now have circuit breakers that will break both lines but look a little deeper. The light switches are now in the neutral line not the phase. 13A sockets fitted in the van are now reverse polarity,

Yes the light switches are in the neutral and what difference does that make, the light still goes off with the switch open and on with the switch closed and in some countries thats the way they are wired.
so the fuse in the plug is in the neutral not the phase.
There is still a fuse in the circuit protecting against overload.

At best some equipment will not work, at worse take the scenario that someone has something plugged in while the family is out. It develops a fault and the fuse can't blow because the polarity is incorrect. It overheats and causes a fire, or one of the children touch it and get electrocuted.

I cant think of a single reason something will not work, unless it gets its power between phase and earth in which case the RCD will operate regardless of polarity. There is still a fuse in circuit, the fact that it is in the neutral is unlikely to affect its ability to protect against an overload.
Protection against electric shock is by the RCD, not the fuse or MCB

Continental plugs are not fused so it doesn't make any difference to them. DP circuit breakers will mask the problem and give a sense of false security. The only way to ensure safety with a UK wired caravan, motor home, machine etc is to ensure the polarity is correct.

The only difference will be that the 13A socket's switch will be in the neutral and unless you start poking wires in the holes I doubt anyone would ever notice the error. Using DP MCB's adds a tiny little extra protection.

I would not want to be explaining to a coroners court that "I thought it was safe". Look at the opinion of the OP about electricians. Why does he think we spend 4 years learning the trade as an apprentice before qualifying and then have to continually keep up with developments and training???

Complete jerk with that attitude!!

I spend a large proportion of my working day sorting out the mess and mistakes created by so called 'qualified electricians', I find that so many of the electricians I meet put themselves on a pedestal and have the attitude 'I'm a good spark because I've got the tickets'. Qualifications does not equal expert or professional.
I'm not saying all electricians are the same and I don't profess to be the best, indeed I know some excellent ones. I also know some real losers and wonder why they ever get paid or are still getting work.
In my home life absolutely dread having to employ any trade to work for me because I know I will have to sort out something they get wrong and have never got to the end of a job and thought thats spot on, with the exception of one plasterer who was over 70 when he first worked for me.
So if the OP's experience's are the same as mine then I quite understand his comments.
On a site where I was installing av kit several years back A guy spent 2 days trying to wire about 10 intermediate switches in a 2way lighting circuit along a corridor, at the end of the second day I went to his supervisor and offered to do the job for a day's pay, in less than 2 hours I redid ALL of his work on the circuit AND completed it AND only used one 3C&E along the line of switches, somehow he was trying to use 2. :o :roll:


Kind regards

Sparky3

Don't get me Wrong, I don't want to see a system working with reverse polarity or any other inconsistency or fault but I did do some work on a caravan site I lived near and that was followed by a lot of calls to sort something out. What the OP is suggesting is heaven in comparison with much that I saw installed by caraven manufacturers and dealers.
 

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