Ceiling rose issue

[Not Einstein]

I need help wiring a ceiling rose can anyone help? It's in a lounge that has two switches. There are 3 black wires and one red(see foto). My partner removed the old one and didn't take a foto of it before. All help appreciated

 

[opps]

I am not an electrician.

The cable that connects to the brown flex is the "switched live"- it runs from the middle of the rose down to the light switch back to the light fitting- the other part of the (same) cable is the permanent live. The perm live is connected to the middle section of the ceiling rose (which is used to connect all of the perm lives, which then run off to other ceiling roses).

The left hand side is where the neutrals connect.

Unfortunately, you cannot identify if a cable is live or neutral just by looking at the colour of the cable.

If faced with that set up, I would start off working out which cables are perm live. I would then flick the light switch (more than once) to find out which is the switched live.

Switched live goes to the far right. Perm lives go in the middle. Neutrals in the left.

Earths go together but you need some earthing sleeves.

I hope that makes sense, if not wait for a proper electrician.

 

[Not Einstein]

Thanks it makes sense yes, but depending on which is switched live, cos I assume the red is permanent live?

 

[opps]

...

deleted by me because I missed that it is two way lighting.

 

[opps]

Edit- sorry. I have only just re-read your original post. I missed the bit about two way lighting.

I have deleted my previous post.

Here is a diagram of two way lighting.

two-way-switching-wiring-diagram

Two way light switching (3 wire system, new harmonised cable colours)

www.lightwiring.co.uk

You will need to use a multimeter to identify the switch cables though.

 

[winston1]

My partner removed the old one and didn't take a photo of it before.

I take it that she/he cannot remember anything. Have you asked?

 

[JohnD]

If you have £8.24 or more it will be very much easier to help you.

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[Not Einstein]

Not helpful

 

[thomp1983]

He's not being difficult but it's alot easier to fix the issue when you can test what each cable does, lighting cables don't use standard colours so we can't just say red is this wire or black is that, they need testing.

If you get a cheap meter we can guide you through using it to fix the problem.

 

[opps]

Not helpful

Which part is not "helpfull"?

You seem to have 4 sets of twin and earth cable running in to the rose.

One will be the light switch (supply and return).

One will be the supply from another light closer to the beginning of the radial circuit.

One will (may) be a supply to the next light on the radial.

I cannot tell which function the 4th twin and earth performs just by looking at the image. It may be a supply to another light, but I cannot say that with confidence.

It isn't rocket science but without a multimeter you have no way of determining which cable does what.

In the image that I linked to, you will see that the perm live from the middle rose leaves as brown (red in your case) and comes back as blue (black in your case) but with a small brown sleeve to let others know that it is live rather than a neutral. I halted once I noticed the 2 light switches. If it were only one switch, it doesn't matter if you transpose the live and neutral, with 2 way lighting, it does.

Your choices are spend a tenner on a multimeter, which you can use in the future, and the proper electricians will walk you through the process of identifying each cable, or pay £100+ for an electrician to sort it out.

Sorry, none of us can tell you exactly which cable does what just by looking at a photo.

This site is full of tradesmen that are willing to devote their spare time to helping people. I would recommend that you let them help you. It is your choice though. For what it is worth, now that you have fellow members that I recognise as being more knowledgeable than me in this subject, I will bow out.

Best of luck.

 

[SUNRAY]

Which part is not "helpfull"?

You seem to have 4 sets of twin and earth cable running in to the rose.

One will be the light switch (supply and return).

One will be the supply from another light closer to the beginning of the radial circuit.

One will (may) be a supply to the next light on the radial.

I cannot tell which function the 4th twin and earth performs just by looking at the image. It may be a supply to another light, but I cannot say that with confidence.

It isn't rocket science but without a multimeter you have no way of determining which cable does what.

In the image that I linked to, you will see that the perm live from the middle rose leaves as brown (red in your case) and comes back as blue (black in your case) but with a small brown sleeve to let others know that it is live rather than a neutral. I halted once I noticed the 2 light switches. If it were only one switch, it doesn't matter if you transpose the live and neutral, with 2 way lighting, it does.

Your choices are spend a tenner on a multimeter, which you can use in the future, and the proper electricians will walk you through the process of identifying each cable, or pay £100+ for an electrician to sort it out.

Sorry, none of us can tell you exactly which cable does what just by looking at a photo.

This site is full of tradesmen that are willing to devote their spare time to helping people. I would recommend that you let them help you. It is your choice though. For what it is worth, now that you have fellow members that I recognise as being more knowledgeable than me in this subject, I will bow out.

Best of luck

The bit's that not helpful is there are no twin and earth cables appearing at the rose.

Without some sort of test equipment or indication of competence it's unlikely many on here will offer assistance.

 

[SUNRAY]

Thanks it makes sense yes, but depending on which is switched live, cos I assume the red is permanent live?

Unlikely.

 

[SUNRAY]

Edit- sorry. I have only just re-read your original post. I missed the bit about two way lighting.

I have deleted my previous post.

Here is a diagram of two way lighting.

two-way-switching-wiring-diagram

Two way light switching (3 wire system, new harmonised cable colours)

www.lightwiring.co.uk

Not applicable to this installation.

You will need to use a multimeter to identify the switch cables though.

 

[briwire]

I would assume that the red is a permanent live. The black wire on the right is only live when the switches are in the ON position (I know it is 2 way). One of the other black wires will be a permanent Neutral and the other a neutral going to the next ceiling rose in the circuit.
To identify, you need a multimeter. Identify by selecting the 230v range and leave the black lead on one of the earths, touch the red lead on the other wires until you read 230v ish. Have someone flick the switches a few times to see if the 230v is maintained-that is the permanent live and should go into the centre terminal block on its own.
To identify the permanent neutral, put the red meter lead on the now terminated permanent live and touch the other black wires until you read 230v. If this is maintained when someone does the switching for you again, it will be the permanent neutral and should go in the left hand block.
To identify the switched live, put the black meter lead in the now terminated permanent neutral, red lead on the other black one at a time, get someone on the switch again and you should read 230v going on/off with the switching. Put a piece of brown tape if possible on it and connect into the right hand terminal block.
Connect your flex as before, brown on RH side, blue on LH side. Your light should now work, but there should be other lights in your house that aren't working. Put the remaining black wire in with the neutral on the LH block.
There are a few variables, the earth might not be connected, but try this procedure first. TAKE CARE, switch off at fuseboard before connecting anything.

 

[SUNRAY]

I would assume that the red is a permanent live. The black wire on the right is only live when the switches are in the ON position (I know it is 2 way). One of the other black wires will be a permanent Neutral and the other a neutral going to the next ceiling rose in the circuit.
To identify, you need a multimeter. Identify by selecting the 230v range and leave the black lead on one of the earths, touch the red lead on the other wires until you read 230v ish. Have someone flick the switches a few times to see if the 230v is maintained-that is the permanent live and should go into the centre terminal block on its own.
To identify the permanent neutral, put the red meter lead on the now terminated permanent live and touch the other black wires until you read 230v. If this is maintained when someone does the switching for you again, it will be the permanent neutral and should go in the left hand block.
To identify the switched live, put the black meter lead in the now terminated permanent neutral, red lead on the other black one at a time, get someone on the switch again and you should read 230v going on/off with the switching. Put a piece of brown tape if possible on it and connect into the right hand terminal block.
Connect your flex as before, brown on RH side, blue on LH side. Your light should now work, but there should be other lights in your house that aren't working. Put the remaining black wire in with the neutral on the LH block.
There are a few variables, the earth might not be connected, but try this procedure first. TAKE CARE, switch off at fuseboard before connecting anything.

In my opinion (and it is only that... my opinion) I suspect there is no permanent live there and much of this post is likely to be incorrect.