Chimney removal

[johnnyhhhh]

Hello guys,

We moved into an old Cornish unit type 1 house and we're in the process of renovating it, but we're stumbling upon some things which are starting to worry me, maybe one of you has any experience with this type of property and can shed some light on some issues?

- we removed the chimney breast in the loft and first floor, in the loft as far as I understand we would need 2 trimmer joists attached to the existing headers, however we're not sure what needs to be done below so we can support part of the existing internal wall that will be built on top

- we have a cupboard/wardrobe on the shared wall upstairs (only), which seems to be made of brick, do we need building control/planning permission or permission from our neighbours to remove it?


Thanks
J

 

[cjard]

Are you undertaking structural works to a party wall yourself, with no experience?

Surely this is penny wise, pound foolish.. I'm all for DIY and helping posters do stuff themselves but advising inexperienced individuals on structural matters based on a few paragraphs and a couple of photos on a forum isn't wise in y book. Do please consider getting someone with the necessary experience and insurances in to design/implement this for you.

 

[johnnyhhhh]

@cjard thanks for the concerns but I'm not undertaking the work myself, the reason why I'm asking here is to figure out what my builder would need before he can start the demo

 

[vinn]

OP,
Where you have removed the c/breast the joist trimming has been exposed - all you have to do is pin noggins across the trimming - they will act as joists for renewing the flooring or making good the ceiling.

The recessed, sooty flue line should be wire brushed clean, and roughly bricked up with brick slips to pull the back wall out.
Then rendered with a 3:1 sand and lime mix.

What do you mean by "the existing internal wall that will be built on top" - on top of what? Do you mean the making good to the old flue line I've advised on above?

If the "cupboard/wardrobe" is "made of brick" & that is a party wall then its possibly part of the neighbour's property - ask them.

BCO should have been informed before the work began.

 

[Doggit]

Are you undertaking structural works to a party wall yourself

Taking the chimney breast out isn't really structural work in the trues sense of the word, but it is notifiable work, so the builders should have got you to contact Building control. They'll very likely just want gallows brackets and a steel plate under what's left of the old chimney in the loft. How far up did you take it out.

The joist in the first picture appear to be coming from the same wall as the chimney breast, so you've very likely got a joist or two that will need extending when the chimney gets removed/

The cupboard and the chimney breast are technically part of the party wall, so it's possible that a party wall notice should be served on your neighbour, but I've never bothered.

If BC are inspecting the chimney removal, then they'll just give you the nod to take out the brick cupboard.

 

[vinn]

What "builders"? The OP makes no mention of "builders" being involved?

"we removed the chimney breast in the loft and first floor" - sounds like the c/b in the loft has been removed.
AAMOI: If gallows brackets had been required then using just "a gallows bracket" - a single gallows bracket is not allowed, always two as a min.

The "joist in the picture that you refer to is not a joist, its the remaining top brick of a brick flue feather.

What "chimney gets removed"? The OP makes no mention of removing the ground floor c/breast.

We dont know if the "cupboard" is "part of the party wall" - neither does the OP. We do know that it is on the bedroom wall "only" - it doesn't come up from below. So all we, & the OP, know are possibilities.

 

[Doggit]

Vinn, if you'd read the 3rd post you'd have seen the builders being mentioned.

Sorry typo errer, should have read brackets, not bracket.

If you look to the right of the first picture, you will see what looks like a joist.

You're right, the OP never mentioned removing the ground floor chimney breast, but it's a reasonable assumption to make.

The cupboard will be attached to the party wall, but as it's a cupboard, it'll be tied in to it, but not be part of it. The odd thing is that they've taken out the chimney breast, but then worried over the cupboard.

 

[vinn]

I apologise for a typo as well, I meant to say "builders being previously involved". The ref to builders in the third post is, as far as I could make out, for proposed builders.

I apologise again, I know the trimming is there, and I could see the joist in question but I thought you were referring to the feather.
AAMOI: there's no need to extend any joists - noggins between the trimming joists will be good enough - the central (shortened) joists will hit the trimmer.

The OP calls it a cupboard but he says it: "seems to be made of brick" - there's no woodwork visible
so its difficult to say what it is esp. as its in a so called Type 1 house. Not that I know anything about such builds.

 

[johnnyhhhh]

Thanks a lot for the input, I'll try to clarify some things.

There is a builder involved who is doing the work, a structural engineer has also been involved but I forgot to mention the cupboard at all until now and I'm the only one being worried about the party wall at this point.

@vinn the cupboard is only in that one mansard bedroom which is shown in the photo

The chimney stack was already removed long before we bought the property, we removed the breast in the loft and in the mansard upstairs.
However Building Control wasn't notified as it wasn't mentioned until now, as we are not planning to remove the ground floor chimney breast do we still need to notify BC? I assume that by doing this now it will be going down the 'regularisation' route?

LE: I actually mentioned BC to the structural engineer we are (and pretty much have to) using as the bigger part of the project involves replacing all the external precast concrete walls with brick and mortar and he has done a lot of these jobs before, however he insisted that BC be notified after the work is done if there are others in the area who have done it.
This seemed a bit odd to me at the time but now it's starting to get me worried, not quite sure if there is much I can do about this now.

 

[Doggit]

I assume that by doing this now it will be going down the 'regularisation' route

Yes it would; they'll check the work being done, tell you the peculiarities of the way they like things dealt with, and then sign it off But if you've taken the majority of the chimney breast out, you might as well go for broke, and take the lower section out as well; it serves no purpose, and will make the room larger. But looking at this post, I'm sure there's a good reason for leaving it in place.

Good point on the noggin and trimmer Vinn, hadn't thought about doing it that way.

 

[vinn]

Thanks for the information.
What is directly on the opposite side of the party wall to your (removed) chimney breast?

So its a cupboard - where is the cupboard door?

What would be the point now the work of interest to BCO has been done? Unless you have somehow damaged the party wall & the neighbour has expressed concern?

 

[johnnyhhhh]

@Doggit Thanks, I'll see what needs to be done before continuing to work on it so we don't have to open up things later.
The biggest issue was (still is to some extent) the mansard bedroom where the cupboard is, trying to make some space there, we initially planned for taking the whole thing out but we don't see the point removing it in the ground floor as the space gained is not going to make much of a difference, so we're keeping it there.

@vinn attached a photo of the other side (second bedroom).
The chimney breast is internal, you can see the other side in the photo attached, only the so called cupboard is on the party wall.
We haven't done any work on the party wall at all, neighbours didn't complain either (yet).

 

[Doggit]

What would be the point now the work of interest to BCO has been done? Unless you have somehow damaged the party wall & the neighbour has expressed concern?

The BCO will grant a certificate of satisfactory completion of the building works - possibly necessary when he goes to sell the property that's all.

What would be the point now the work of interest to BCO has been done? Unless you have somehow damaged the party wall & the neighbour has expressed concern?

The BCO wouldn't get involved if there's any damage to the party wall during the works; that'd be for the neighbour to deal with through the courts.

I can see where you're coming from Johnny, but again, keeping an eye on selling it, a square room gives much more flexibility than one with a chimney in it.

 

[johnnyhhhh]

@Doggit I appreciate your reasoning on the square room, I'm thinking the same, but as we're on quite a tight budget at the moment and this is not the most important part of our project we will have to deal with it in the future, maybe before it gets to selling.

 

[Doggit]

As it's ground floor, if you take the chimney breast out yourself (it's only hard work, that's all), then you'll only need to get the plasterers to make good, and as they're plastering the rest of the job, it may not cost that much extra.

Trust me, better to do it now for a little extra, than later for a lot more.