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Combo Back brakes....advice please John/Burnerman??!!

Discussion in 'Car Repairs / Maintenance' started by ABCwarrior, 4 Jan 2019.

  1. ABCwarrior

    ABCwarrior

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    So,
    Done the front brakes fine, all went well and they're good. The self adjusting kit arrived yesterday so this afternoon got the N/S wheel and drum off with no wrangling and found this.... 20190104_151304.jpg

    On closer inspection I realised that the adjuster pivot is lacking one of those spring washers you push on that cannot come off and holds the adjuster arm tight to the shoe? Is this correct?
    20190104_155033 - Copy.jpg

    This to some may seem trivial but it's in the new kit and without it allows lateral play from the shoe, enough to slip past the ratchet wheel on the adjuster??
    Which brings me to the top arrow...until it's daylight and I dismantle it all is it possible the adjuster arm is on back to front? Ie is the longer smooth side facing out? I'm assuming the side of the adjuster with the "tooth" should be there to prevent the adjuster arm from dropping down?(or could it just be worn??)

    Any advice from anyone is much appreciated.... 20190104_152518.jpg

    The new O/S arm- with the currently missing sprung washer/retainer and I've lined up the adjuster with the strut to show how it may be wrongly assembled?

    20190104_155735.jpg

    Finally the last photo showing how I think the adjuster should be in relation to the strut, with the "tooth" stopping the adjuster from being pulled down past the toothed wheel?? Is this correct?? I'm getting more confused !!!!
     
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  3. Burnerman

    Burnerman

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    First, can I ask you to open up the other side wheel - without dismantling anything - to check what you find against that? It will, in fact, be a mirror image but it will help.
    First pic......the lever that pulls the toothed wheel has slipped down and isn't doing anything. Its meant to be kept in place by that forked end of the main adjuster - I suspect this is the wrong way round....if you study the thing, its not just a fork that sits either side of the shoe, one side has a bump to hold the sprung lever in place. This can be seen in your lower pic.
    I cant comment on the missing sprung washer but I cant see how it would help a great deal - other than maybe holding it tight against the shoe. See if there's one on the other side!
    Anyway, these entire adjusting systems are mediocre at best, and always can be adjusted manually by three clicks or so to get the shoes nearer the drum. This is especially relevant if the drums are worn!
    One tip you may find useful - cover the shoe friction material with masking tape as you are working - then it doesn't matter if you get grease on them.
    Another tip - if the drums have a wear lip, now is the time to grind it away.
    Be lucky!
    John :)
     
  4. ABCwarrior

    ABCwarrior

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    Cheers John- I'll dismantle the leading shoe(Non hand brake) side first to see whether they have got the end 180 degrees out. I'm tempted to dismantle and clean the lot now I'm in there tbh...! When the brakes were done last January they did clean off any lip as there was nothing hindering the drum removal it just slid off, even looks like a slight chamfer around the circumference to the shoe/drum contact area which may reduce a lip forming in future...
    Looking forward to a wrestling match with the springs tomorrow!

    Thanks for the reply at least I now know for sure which way round the strut end should be regardless of what way it is now....!:cool::cool::cool:
     
  5. Burnerman

    Burnerman

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    Aye, it will have you tearing your hair out from time to time but the next one will be fine :whistle:
    I tend to hook the springs on when the shoes are off the bottom pivot and then use an adjustable spanner to help lever the shoes into place, then refit the hold down springs with heavy pliers.
    Its a canny idea to lube the backplate where the shoes slide, and roughen the shoes up with abrasive paper.
    John :)
     
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  6. ABCwarrior

    ABCwarrior

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    Well well well..... The other side was identical 20190105_114628.jpg

    I decided at this point to use a file to mark the outer strut at the adjuster end so that when dismantled there'd be no dispute over whether the arm was the correct way against the shoe..... The remaining photos show the marks on the strut, the new sprung washer and one on how the set up should look. I sanded the shoes to remove glaze and sanded the inner drums and used disc cleaner. Got them adjusted fine and the handbrake didn't need touched it's holding on a steep incline at 4 clicks and both wheels turn freely though one seems a bit out of true(oval). The postie turned up with the Haynes manual I bought just as I headed out to test it...typical.... 20190105_110211.jpg 20190105_114726.jpg 20190105_123927.jpg 20190105_123936.jpg 20190105_150956.jpg

    This last photo shows that the garage have installed the adjuster struts wrongly, and without a spring washer on the pivot- not that that would have mattered in this case....Now I've got to confront them as I've done all the advisories on the pre-mot, and it's going back to them for MOT, but this is just simply expensive yet sh*t workmanship....!!!
     
  7. ABCwarrior

    ABCwarrior

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    Something else about the work they did....must have had a job getting the drums off both sides. In the top two photos of this post you can see where the screwdrivers have bent the thin inner rim around the backplate that sits in the corresponding recess on the drum to keep weather out. I had to go around with long nosed pliers straightening out the edge as it was rubbing on the drum...
     
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  9. Burnerman

    Burnerman

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    You've done an excellent job there - well done! I guess you didn't remove the central hub, so it must have been awkward getting in there.
    If the drums have been on for ages they can be the devil to remove - belting them with a hammer usually does it as you pull but sometimes leverage is necessary, hence the bent backplates.
    I think I mentioned before - two or three manual clicks on the adjusters will give you a tighter handbrake. Manufacturers such as Renault use a much finer toothed wheel which has a similar effect.
    Good luck with the MOT!
    John :)
     
  10. ABCwarrior

    ABCwarrior

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    Cheers John....actually very satisfying knowing I've saved myself £350-£400 and I trust myself on jobs I can do more than the garage (well with good reason, this example for starters. The time it needed a new sump the garage hacked through the exhaust to get to it, crap welding after and missing clamp/brackets which I pulled them up on. The very first official service at 20k (for warranty purposes)I left 4litres of Magnatec 5w-30 in the van and asked that they use this....when I went back I asked where the remainder of the oil was, to which the dim apprentice tasked with the job said "i put it all in"...I said "what all 4 litres it only takes 3.2L maximum " (I'd changed it at 10k already)....I knew the garage owner whose eyes were rolling in his head so they had to extract the excess via the dipstick tube....), the drums came off easy this time maybe I should remove and clean them up more regularly.
    Time to get into the Haynes as it's due a fuel filter change next...
     
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  11. Burnerman

    Burnerman

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    The 1.7 Isuzu engine is easy enough fuel filter wise, one screw through the top and you leave the pipes connected.
    The smaller engine needs the filter off the engine and into a vice to unscrew the top ring, Peugeot style.
    I can't remember if either had priming bulbs though but its easy enough to fill up the filter bowl with fuel which saves excessive cranking.
    John :)
     
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  12. Keithmac

    Keithmac

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    I got roped into sorting a Vauxhall Astra's drum brakes out years ago (looks nigh on identical to yours).

    Garage should hang their head in shame looking at the first pictures!.
     
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  13. ABCwarrior

    ABCwarrior

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    Well- thought I'd update this, my pre-mot flagged up the brakes, a wiper and an advisory on an inner track rod end. I put it in for the MOT and spoke to the head mechanic, showed him the photos and told him about the strut nut not being tightened etc...he was genuinely mortified, and very apologetic.....anyway- they MOT'd it and I had to pay them nothing...but, at MOT it was discovered that there was some corrosion on the subframe near the gearbox and they did some welding to pass it...but then there's 4 advisories now, BOTH inner track rods, one anti roll bar ball joint(fine, can do these), a "minor" oil leak(will investigate when it's warmer) and a small leak from the exhaust back box(easy enough to do)...which considering the time frame and low miles (20?) between pre-mot and MOT makes me wonder why these were not picked up??? The mechanic who did the MOT however said the brakes/handbrake were now superb and almost no imbalance etc between them!! (I know them all as our works fleet of 6 transit minibuses are there almost weekly for MOT/quarterly services plus any day to day repairs...I organise this as part of my job and they'll be bricking it in case I let my manager know what I've experienced lol))
    But makes me wonder if a pre mot is worth it or just give it a once over and do as much as I can before the MOT?? Do I take it back to them again? They certainly now know I'm one to watch out for lol...!!!
     
  14. Burnerman

    Burnerman

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    It sounds like you have a good relationship with this garage and I'd stick with them......the van is obviously getting on a bit but at least you have another
    year on the tarmac!
    Track rod ends are simple to do and cheap - inner track rods where they join into the rack rather less so - it depends on the design of the rack. Other advisories are dead simple.
    I never submit a vehicle for an MOT without a good check over, happily my pass rate is 100% on over 100 submissions - but emissions sometimes have me on edge a bit!
    You've done well with those brakes, and cheers for letting us know.
    Regards
    John :)
     
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