- Joined
- 27 Jan 2008
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- Llanfair Caereinion, Nr Welshpool
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This has come up before. The electrician has a contract with the scheme provider which I understand states he will abide by the rules of BS7671 but this is not part of the contract with the customer so only person (public companies are considered as a person) who can demand under the law that the installation certificate is provided is the scheme provider.
Now I had assumed like with using the LABC that the scheme member had to send the installation certificate to the scheme provider in order to get the compliance certificate. However on this site I was told this was not the case and the electrician fills in an on line form for the compliance certificate to be sent which does not require all readings to be sent to the scheme provider.
So if the electrician has made an error lets say for example the loop impedance for a final ring was 1.43Ω rather than 0.94Ω line - neutral which is required to ensure volt drop is within the required limits (assuming incomer of 0.35Ω) then no one would be aware of his error. He could end up doing this for years without even realising he was in error.
However the error I have selected would not really make the installation dangerous in any way, so one can debate if it really matters. It could cause problems with refrigeration having too much volt drop but that is about the only domestic appliance which could be damaged and even that is highly unlikely.
So technically he has broken the contact law between him and scheme provider, but not the contract law between him and the person ordering the work.
Personally I feel the installation certificate protects the electrician in that it shows the readings taken at the time and exactly what work was carried out. If at time of installation the incoming loop impedance was 0.25Ω and everything passed and 5 years latter there is a problem and the incoming loop impedance is 0.8Ω he has some thing to show it was OK when he did the work. The same for extra added after he has finished if not shown on his paperwork then he can show it was not done by him. I think not issuing a certificate is daft.
However at my mothers house the council agreed to hard wire her door intercom rather than being battery operated. A contractor was selected to do this work which involved using existing wiring and installing a 12 volt DC power supply. He fitted a 12 volt AC power supply and had to be called back to correct the error. He could not find a DC power supply in local whole sale outlet which could be hard wired, but did find a wallwart plug-in power supply so he fitted a 13A socket and plugged in the unit. However now he had fitted a socket which would need a minor works certificate, I will guess the electrician did not have any meters with him so could not test. I tested and the RCD did not trip, now at that time it was permitted not to have an RCD for dedicated sockets which this was, so all he needed was a sticker saying door bell transformer only. I did try to get it corrected, but gave up. We never got a minor works certificate and since all documented with council if there was a problem the firm would be libel. But non of the sockets are RCD protected so what's the problem?
I can understand the error made with my mother, however a whole house re-wire is another matter. I will guess for some reason the electrician has not got the readings, be it that he never took them, or lost the fag packet with them on, he will likely need to return to get reading or guess what they are likely to be. Problem is when you take readings on a regular basis it is easy to fudge up some results. If asked by scheme provider maybe he will be a little less likely to fudge them rather than return to the job. However I see little point in pushing for them unless you know there is a fault and this is all to do with that fault like with me and no RCD protection. He just sits back and says up stairs was shorter than down stairs ring it was around 1.5 roles of cable he used so call up 0.92Ω and down 0.98Ω call the lights 1.2Ω and so on and make up paperwork without measuring a thing and it would be near impossible to prove he never measured to get the results.
So is it really worth pushing for results which are likely going to be guess work anyway? OK I have my own set of meters so I could prove they were false, but most will have no way to know if true or false so not real point in going to any great effort to get them.
Now I had assumed like with using the LABC that the scheme member had to send the installation certificate to the scheme provider in order to get the compliance certificate. However on this site I was told this was not the case and the electrician fills in an on line form for the compliance certificate to be sent which does not require all readings to be sent to the scheme provider.
So if the electrician has made an error lets say for example the loop impedance for a final ring was 1.43Ω rather than 0.94Ω line - neutral which is required to ensure volt drop is within the required limits (assuming incomer of 0.35Ω) then no one would be aware of his error. He could end up doing this for years without even realising he was in error.
However the error I have selected would not really make the installation dangerous in any way, so one can debate if it really matters. It could cause problems with refrigeration having too much volt drop but that is about the only domestic appliance which could be damaged and even that is highly unlikely.
So technically he has broken the contact law between him and scheme provider, but not the contract law between him and the person ordering the work.
Personally I feel the installation certificate protects the electrician in that it shows the readings taken at the time and exactly what work was carried out. If at time of installation the incoming loop impedance was 0.25Ω and everything passed and 5 years latter there is a problem and the incoming loop impedance is 0.8Ω he has some thing to show it was OK when he did the work. The same for extra added after he has finished if not shown on his paperwork then he can show it was not done by him. I think not issuing a certificate is daft.
However at my mothers house the council agreed to hard wire her door intercom rather than being battery operated. A contractor was selected to do this work which involved using existing wiring and installing a 12 volt DC power supply. He fitted a 12 volt AC power supply and had to be called back to correct the error. He could not find a DC power supply in local whole sale outlet which could be hard wired, but did find a wallwart plug-in power supply so he fitted a 13A socket and plugged in the unit. However now he had fitted a socket which would need a minor works certificate, I will guess the electrician did not have any meters with him so could not test. I tested and the RCD did not trip, now at that time it was permitted not to have an RCD for dedicated sockets which this was, so all he needed was a sticker saying door bell transformer only. I did try to get it corrected, but gave up. We never got a minor works certificate and since all documented with council if there was a problem the firm would be libel. But non of the sockets are RCD protected so what's the problem?
I can understand the error made with my mother, however a whole house re-wire is another matter. I will guess for some reason the electrician has not got the readings, be it that he never took them, or lost the fag packet with them on, he will likely need to return to get reading or guess what they are likely to be. Problem is when you take readings on a regular basis it is easy to fudge up some results. If asked by scheme provider maybe he will be a little less likely to fudge them rather than return to the job. However I see little point in pushing for them unless you know there is a fault and this is all to do with that fault like with me and no RCD protection. He just sits back and says up stairs was shorter than down stairs ring it was around 1.5 roles of cable he used so call up 0.92Ω and down 0.98Ω call the lights 1.2Ω and so on and make up paperwork without measuring a thing and it would be near impossible to prove he never measured to get the results.
So is it really worth pushing for results which are likely going to be guess work anyway? OK I have my own set of meters so I could prove they were false, but most will have no way to know if true or false so not real point in going to any great effort to get them.
