Digital Voltmeter at Lidl £9.99

If that is true, then I would obviously be even happier to use it for single-phase 230V - but, as I said, I would personally be happy to use it for that purpose even if 300V was the maximum actual voltage it was required/guaranteed to be able to tolerate.
Would you drive without a seatbelt? ;)

It does seem that 300V is rather unusual - most Cat III labelling I've seen seems to be 600V or 1000V.
I wonder if the lawyers at LIDL are thinking something along the lines of.

"If we sell Cat II meters and one of them blows up in a customers face, will the ambulance chasing lawyers argue that we sold something that was not fit for purpose?".

But the meter vendor was struggling to make a CAT III 600V unit at an acceptable price, so they compromised on CAT III 300V.

Screwfix seem to be offering a CAT III 600V unit (though you have to look to the video or the Q&A to see the Cat III claim) for a similar price. I dunno if that CAT rating is indepdently verified though.
 
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Would you drive without a seatbelt? ;)
Legal requirements aside, I might well do if I believed (which I don't!) that the risk to me if I didn't wear a seatbelt was 'vanishingly small'.
But the meter vendor was struggling to make a CAT III 600V unit at an acceptable price, so they compromised on CAT III 300V.
Maybe - but I thought we had agreed that 300V was adequate for 230V single-phase work (other than at the origin, which probably requires Cat IV)?

In fact, I've just done a bit of Googling. and it appears that Cat III 300V is required to be able to withstand transients up to 4,000V - which is surely enough?

Kind Regards, John
 
Legal requirements aside, I might well do if I believed (which I don't!) that the risk to me if I didn't wear a seatbelt was 'vanishingly small'.
Maybe - but I thought we had agreed that 300V was adequate for 230V single-phase work (other than at the origin, which probably requires Cat IV)?
Maybe compromised wasn't the right word, what I mean is I can imagine the multimeter design was originally designed as Cat II 600V, but then someone decided that selling CAT II multimeters to DIYers is questionable and the manufacturer they were working with couldn't achive CAT III 600V without significant redesign/extra cost.

CAT III 300V has similar requirements to CAT II 600V, so was easilly achivable and is defensible as "fit for purpose" for a DIYer so they went for that, at least that is my guess.

Sometimes vendors dual-rate their multimeters but in the case of a multimeter intended for sale in a supermarket I suspect dual-rating as CAT II 600V, CAT III 300V would just encourage misuse of the meter on three-phase installations while offering little practical benefit.
 
Maybe compromised wasn't the right word, what I mean is I can imagine the multimeter design was originally designed as Cat II 600V, but then someone decided that selling CAT II multimeters to DIYers is questionable and the manufacturer they were working with couldn't achive CAT III 600V without significant redesign/extra cost.
Yes, that's possible. As you say, selling a Cat II meter 2 DIYers is 'questionable' (and even more questionable for electricians) since, as far as I can make out, Cat II does not really relate to electrical installations but, rather, only to things connected to (e.g. 'plugged into') them.

I think it probably follows from what I've just written that it is doubtful that "Cat II 600V" would ever really be required (at least in relation to single-phase) - since 300V should be adequate for any (single phase) Class II application.
CAT III 300V has similar requirements to CAT II 600V, so was easilly achivable and is defensible as "fit for purpose" for a DIYer so they went for that, at least that is my guess.
Not a bad guess. According to my Googling, in terms of transient-withstanding (and although I find it a little difficult to understand why this should be the case), the requirements for Cat III 300V and Cat II 600V seem to be not just similar but identical (4,000V). Cat III 600V seems to be required to tolerate 6,000V transients.

As an aside, do transients anything like as high as these 'required' figures ever occur with a duration long enough to have enough energy to represent any 'danger'?

Kind Regards, John
 
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As an aside, do transients anything like as high as these 'required' figures ever occur with a duration long enough to have enough energy to represent any 'danger'?
My understanding is that the danger is that the transient breaks down an insulation barrier and then the regular supply voltage finishes the job of blowing up the multimeter.
 
I think it probably follows from what I've just written that it is doubtful that "Cat II 600V" would ever really be required (at least in relation to single-phase) - since 300V should be adequate for any (single phase) Class II application.
Well working on the primary side of a SMPSU springs to mind as a CAT 2 application in the 300V-600V range, but yes that is pretty niche.
 
My understanding is that the danger is that the transient breaks down an insulation barrier and then the regular supply voltage finishes the job of blowing up the multimeter.
I suppose that's a theoretical possibility - but does it 'ever' actually happen?

More to the point, what is special about measuring equipment? Does not that theoretical risk apply equally to anything we connect to, or plug into, an electrical installation?

Kind Regards, John
 
Well working on the primary side of a SMPSU springs to mind as a CAT 2 application in the 300V-600V range, but yes that is pretty niche.
Indeed - and equally the working on any connected or plugged-in load. However, as w've both said' it must be very 'niche' for someone to buy a multimeter only for such uses - or, at least, 'dangerous' to sell anything on the basis that it would only be used for such purposes.

That probably explains the fact that I don't recall ever having seen a Class II multimeter - have you?

Kind Regards, John
 
AIUI the overvoltage tolerance is only one aspect (though the most publicised one) of the IEC categories. I know the 600V cat IV/1000V cat III meter I use has some pretty serious fuses in it.

I know there are reports of multimeters blowing up and causing serious injury or even death, for example https://www.ecmweb.com/arc-flash/case-deadly-arc-flash , some of them may be down to use of the current range by mistake, but this one doesn't seem to be (he had made several measurements before the one that blew up in his face).

As to why measurement equipment is "special" I suspect it's a combination of being right in the user's face and being frequently connected directly to high power circuits, often via questionable connections. When something goes wrong the natural thing to do is to pull away, but that is often the *worst* thing you can do as it just leads to more arcs.

I have seen a bunch of multimeters for sale that only claim Cat II. Just go look up the cheapest multimeters on Farnell or RS and you'll find them. It's also common to see dual-ratings, where it will have a higher category at a lower voltage and a lower category at a higher voltage.

The screwfix meter at £10 for a CAT III 600V seems to be getting into the region of almost too good to be true territory. I think I have one of said screwfix meters kicking around i'll have to take a look to see if the CAT III rating is validated by a reputable test lab.
 
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AIUI the overvoltage tolerance is only one aspect (though the most publicised one) of the IEC categories.
Indeed - or, at least, there appear to be other specific requirements underlying overvoltage tolerance (e.g. spacing between PCB tracke stc.)
I know there are reports of multimeters blowing up and causing serious injury or even death, for example https://www.ecmweb.com/arc-flash/case-deadly-arc-flash , some of them may be down to use of the current range by mistake, but this one doesn't seem to be (he had made several measurements before the one that blew up in his face).
Yes, I'm aware of a very small number of anecdotal stories, including that one, which is why I put 'ever' in quotes. However, that one (which is the case I've most often seen mentioned) was clearly a long time ago. The article was written in 2010, and the author talks in the past tense about an investigation he undertook "several years after the accident" - so it could probably easily have been 20 or more years ago. Had there been similar cases since, perhaps we would have heard something about them? The circumstances of that particular case were, of course, pretty complicated. I still think that such incidents are probably incredibly rare, and probably much rarer than other (electrical) causes of injuries and deaths amongst electricians.
As to why measurement equipment is "special" I suspect it's a combination of being right in the user's face and being frequently connected directly to high power circuits, often via questionable connections.
Maybe, but I'm not all that convinced by that reasoning. For a start, I would never put a meter 'right in my face', and would have thought that electricians would be taught not to do that. If we are talking about supply transients causing electronic items to spontaneously explode, then I would have thought that there were countless other 'everyday' situations in which that would be a risk (and possibly 'in the face' of those nearby) - hence I'm still not sure that I understand why these concerns seemingly only exist in relation to measuring equipment.
I have seen a bunch of multimeters for sale that only claim Cat II. Just go look up the cheapest multimeters on Farnell or RS and you'll find them.
Faie enough. As I said, I'd not noticed any - but I suppose I haven't been looking for them.
It's also common to see dual-ratings, where it will have a higher category at a lower voltage and a lower category at a higher voltage.
I'm not quite sure how, in practice, that would work (usefully). In particular, if the voltage rating is <300V, then it presumably would not be suitable for anything above Class II.
The screwfix meter at £10 for a CAT III 600V seems to be getting into the region of almost too good to be true territory.
Maybe. However, despite what one might first think, I'm not sure that getting a higher 'rating' necessarily has toi have a major impact on production costs. A lot of it is presumably to do with careful design - in terms of arrangement and spacing of components, spacing of PCB tracks etc. - which factors have little or no impact on production costs. There probably will be a need for some higher-speced components, maybe slightly thicker insulation and maybe a few additional 'protective' components, but that might not have a major impact, either. As with so many things, the prices we are used to at the top of the market probably include a major component of "paying just for a name", rather than anything else.

Kind Regards, John
 
I took the second one back today, with both of them the resistance of the 2 test leads held firmly together was wandering all over the place and never below 20Ω.

On mine the continuity check on the leads is a stable zero, however when I tried to check the resistance of a bit of metal, it was wandering up & down.

I checked my car battery (with the engine off), and it read a stable 12.44V, which sounds about right.

I did notice that the leads require a bit of force before they 'click' into place. This felt totally different to a Fluke where they just kind of friction fit in. Perhaps a stupid question, but did you push the leads in all the way so they clicked?
 
So what is the verdict on these for a tenner, are they worth the money or not for a diy er, and are they completely safe to use with 240v electrics?

Out local lidl has a load in at the moment is it worth a tenner or are there better out there for a similar price?

Bought a cheapie years ago when I had a boat and needed to check out some dodgy wiring. It doesn't have a continuity tester on it so this maybe a step up for me.

 
yes & yes.

IMO the leads may want replacing sooner than later tho - on meters of this price they usually have el cheapy wire in the leads.
 
Get one whilst Lidl have them in, and keep the receipt.

If you don't like it, you could always return it (I believe Lidl return policy is not bad)
 
If it's got a transistor test socket on the front, it's a pile of junk. The presence of that socket also means any Cat ratings on it are lies at it's totally unsuitable for mains voltages.

The Lidl one is a big improvement just because it doesn't have that socket.
 

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