DIY Refurbish en-suite... or do it another way?

[A.Steve]

I am a time-deprived DIY person near Gloucester. I want to refurbish a (very small) en-suite. I am prepared to do work myself - but, particularly with plumbing, and tiling, I suspect a professional would do a better job (and do it *much* quicker).

My problems are:

While I've visited retail show-rooms, only a tiny number of choices of products are on display. This prevents me from seeing the products I will need before committing to order them - which feels risky.

Of the products I have seen, they appear to have had re-branding applied (perhaps to make price-comparison more difficult) - but this also undermines getting technical information (such as accurate scale drawings) to establish exact size/shape - which is especially important in my tight confined en-suite space. For example, it's impossible to tell from photos if it would be feasible to recess a frame for a shower-door by 15mm into the plaster/wall on either side - and none seem to be available to examine in stores.

I'm finding it difficult to establish a bathroom fitter (plumber; tiler; carpenter - etc. ) prepared to quote to do the installation. I'm told by one retailer that the going rate is £220/day - I've no problem with that price (if they'd be working for me at it) but it's hard to establish, based purely on price, that whoever I'd have to accept would do the job to my preferred specification. One bathroom fitter gave a quote and recommended vinal finishes/products I wouldn't want - then declined to provide a detailed quote if I wanted ceramic/porcelain tiled walls/floor. The company who cited £220/day are trying to persuade me that an £800 shower door (of a design that doesn't look convincing - and for which no sample is available for me to approve) would be better for me than the <£300 bi-folds I see online. I'm awaiting a formal quote from that supplier - but I am not optimistic it will be a viable proposal.

Questions:

What's the best way to go about getting technical data on things like showers, shower doors; shower trays - etc.? With tiles, I could ask for samples and order from many companies on-line... but it is harder to see how to gain confidence that other size/design critical components will be 'right'. For example, I'm considering replacing the existing electric shower with a thermostatically controlled mixer fed by a combination boiler. The ones I saw in the show-room ranged from £200-ish to £507... and only the most expensive one really appealed. Online, I see an even greater range of prices - from £100-ish upwards... but they all look almost identical - none seem to come with specifications to discriminate between them. Are there any good strategies to ensure I buy a good quality mixer shower online?

Do you have any hints about how to find trades who are prepared to take on a project like this? Estimates for doing the work range from 1 to 2 weeks... DIY - all-day-every-day - I think it would take me a month... and I don't have a free month. I suspect it could take 1-2 months just to acquire all the parts (shower; matching sink-tap; shower-tray; under-sink 'vanity unit'; floor and wall tiles of suitable colours.

Is it best to try and find the products to be installed before finding the installer? I anticipate that, if I do it that way... the installer may complain that the product isn't suited to the job for one reason or another... but... if I leave the selection of products to the installer - I seem to lose oversight on finishes and component quality. Any ideas?

 

[Madrab]

You are really between a rock and a hard place.

You want to be able to micro manage what it is you get and how it is to be done ( which isn't always a bad thing IMO) but you'll find it nigh on impossible to find an installer that will do the work like that. That when it drops into the realms of DIY so you get what you want but if you aren't competent to do all the work to the standard you are looking for then you'll never be happy.

The only way that would work is to hire individual recommended trades and be very specific about what it is you want and have it all down it black and white. If a lot of it is bespoke/modified then be prepared to pay for it. You will get installers that will fit what you supply but all the support/responsibility will be on you. My last job was like that, the bath arrived marked, so did the basin unit. I was able to flatten out the bath and the basin unit touched up. The tiler did an ok job, not the quality I would have wanted but they were happy but had to grout little areas that were missed and he added more marks to the bath that UI had to flatten out again and I had to re-trim the tiles to get the shower feeds to line back up properly. All this extra 'stuff' cost the client unfortunately.

If you are looking to source things online then that can be a minefield. There a a large amount of Asian copies churned out, that look like more expensive products. These days though expensive doesn't always mean quality. The only real safeguard I have found these days is buy from reputable manufacturers that will guarantee their items properly and have a good support/spares procedures.

Most stuff has information online, either that or you find the closest possible to give a rough guide.
Trades - recommendations, picture with clients contact info who will confirm and work you have the opperchancity see

 

[A.Steve]

You are really between a rock and a hard place.

I've noticed that it's really difficult. I lack confidence with plumbing (though I think I could probably do a good job) and with tiling (though I know my inexperience would impact the quality of my results).

I hear what you're saying about difficulties with online purchases. With tiles, I think, I should be able to get samples and mitigate quality risks that way... The shower door seemed impossible when I talked to full-bathroom installation companies. Right now, a framed door fixes to the wall and a bath panel buts up to it. I want a frameless shower door - and I want the walls tiled... so - in my opinion - the right approach will be to fit the shower door on-top of the tiles (I want the tiles to extend to the rest of the bathroom - not just in the shower cubicle.) Then craziness emerges. The width of the room (where the shower door is) is 870mm (I think the shower tray is 900mm and sits into a recess in the wall) but, with 2 x 9mm tiles and tile-adhesive, I expect that means the new door must fit in a ~850mm gap. The standard doors are 800mm or 900mm standard widths. Both can be adjusted smaller by 30mm only... so the 800mm door leaves a ~50mm gap and the maximum adjustment on the 900mm doors leaves them ~20mm too big to fit. After a *lot* of searching... I've found a brand that do a frameless door that adjusts between 830 and 860mm. I expect that I will want to use it... because it avoids compromise on the sort of end result I can hope for. I can find almost identical looking doors that are 870-900mm wide for ~£140 and ~£180 and ~£400. The one with tech-specs that say it will fit an 850mm gap is £560... so - despite looking at online offers, it isn't their price that attracts me to them. I strongly suspect, if I had a retail 'do the entire job' company do the refurbishment... I'd get the £140

I could rip-out the existing en-suite; I could repair the chipboard floor (I've done comparable repairs in two bedrooms). I think I could then get a plumber to do the pipework to prepare for installation of the new shower, shower tray and W/C. I've noticed that 'tiler' is a trade on 'check-a-trade' - and if I can get someone who takes responsibility for preparation-to-tile (waterproof membranes in shower cubicle; solid base for floor... on top of chipboard floorboards once made-good) and tiling (perhaps on an agreed day rate - or a price for a specific result) then I can side-step my lack of skill with that aspect of the project. (My confidence is lowest with tiling... because I want to use big tiles... and - I know - they'll harder to work with.) I'm pretty confident that I could install the washbasin, W/C and shower door myself... I wouldn't be quick - but I think I could do as well with that bit of the job as anyone else.

Every way forward looks problematic... but buying the important (non-generic) products.. the relevant finishes... getting them delivered before the job is started... and inspecting them to make sure they're suitable... seems a good idea. My motivation for wanting to be involved in decision making isn't to cut costs... it's because I've specific ideas about the end result I'm aiming to achieve.

 

[muggles]

A good bathroom installer should be able to advise you on the best products / brands, have a sensible & detailed conversation about your requirements, and produce an end product you're completely satisfied with. That being said, I don't know any good installers charging £220/day - I pay my subbies more than that.

Reputable brands all have technical data available on their websites, and technical departments you can call or email to ask further questions if needed. The big sheds like Easy Bathrooms / Better Bathrooms / Bathstore won't necessarily have such information because they tend to either have things made specifically for them or rebrand other manufacturers products and won't tell you where they're sourced. They aren't always very good at supplying spares either.

 

[StephenStephen]

There's a lot to be said for asking around locally - people you know who've had work done...

 

[A.Steve]

I don't know any good installers charging £220/day - I pay my subbies more than that.

I now suspect that this rate was the rate the company owner paid his staff - not the rate the business intended to charge me. This would square with the staff seeming extremely disinterested in getting on with anything - and why I still don't have a quote ~3 weeks after asking for one. If I were looking to hire someone to fit my en-suite on a day-rate, what should I expect - retail? (Would that involve plumbing, tiling and basic carpentry... or would I need to get separate tradesmen for each skill?)

Asking around is a good idea... though I'm not doing well on this front... I don't know anyone (reasonably local) who has had a bathroom refurbished... and, further afield, the example refurbishment I know most about... was an abject disaster - an example of how not to do it.

I'm not adverse to paying a sensible price for quality work. For quality work, I'd need a good end result... and a sensible price is one where I'm given an estimate of the upper-bound cost of doing the work - not just a lower bound estimate. I'm wavering on going full-DIY... not to save money... but because doing the work myself might be easier than finding someone competent to do it on my behalf. I'm keen to point out that, while I think I can get good results... I won't be quick - and I'd need to learn new skills as I go along.

What I really need to do is convince myself that I won't get scammed if I accept a supplier... and, it seems, the businesses that claim to specialise in bathrooms are not keen to convince me of this. I've made a little headway trying to find out how to source the components that would suit the space... though, if I buy them myself... I expect... I'll end up having to fit them myself in order to get the job done.

The big sheds like Easy Bathrooms / Better Bathrooms / Bathstore won't necessarily have such information because they tend to either have things made specifically for them or rebrand other manufacturers products and won't tell you where they're sourced. They aren't always very good at supplying spares either.

That's the impression I got from Easy Bathrooms... I got a components quote from them - but they quoted for the wrong items - so it wasn't very useful. I didn't see an advantage in using Easy Bathrooms - when I asked about things, they just got out supplier catalogues. I couldn't understand the value they thought they were adding... they didn't seem to be able to advise on appropriate products; they didn't seem to understand the catalogues they were using and they didn't seem to want to provide technical information (e.g. exact sizes). I didn't see them as being a better source than somewhere like Wickes or Screwfix... or online... as I'd still need to take responsibility for checking the details.

 

[Diver Fred]

Must it be tiles? Why not use Shower panels?

 

[A.Steve]

Must it be tiles? Why not use Shower panels?

For me to be happy with it... yes, it needs to be tiles and they need to look something a bit like natural stone.

I've got shower panels right now. I know they work - but I don't like them. The 3 main things I want to upgrade are... to get rid of the 'plastic' feel and replace it with something neat, modern and solid; replace the shower door with a frameless bi-fold and upgrade the shower (to a thermostatic mixer).

This said, while I can find lots of candidates for floor tiles, and there are lots of natural-stone-appearance options with a matt, non-slip. finish... I think I'd prefer a (slippery) gloss surface on my wall tiles... I'm finding that much harder to find. There seem to be far fewer options for polished porcelain tiles... and the options drop further when I decide I want large format tiles (ideally 900x450mm). I'm not going to plumb for plastic shower panels... because I'd prefer matt tiles on the wall to plastic on the wall (if I can't find suitable polished ones.)

 

[oldbutnotdead]

There's no easy answer. The design service offered by many companies is a bit poor cos its job is to fit their products into your space rather than convert your vision into reality.
You may have more success if you create some real scale drawings of the space you have and the design you want.
Big problem with plumbing a bathroom/shower room is that you usually bury some or all of the pipework so any faults found post-installation are very disruptive to fix.
You can address this in your design to an extent ...if you can design in accessible pipe runs then the quality of your plumbing matters less.
Tiling is all about preparation and setting-out. The self-levelling spacer things work well (expensive though). Powder adhesive you mix yourself is much easier to work with than the premixed stuff in tubs.
Basically it is all DIYable. As long as you have access to a working toilet/bathroom take as long as you like.

 

[A.Steve]

There's no easy answer. The design service offered by many companies is a bit poor cos its job is to fit their products into your space rather than convert your vision into reality.
You may have more success if you create some real scale drawings of the space you have and the design you want.
Big problem with plumbing a bathroom/shower room is that you usually bury some or all of the pipework so any faults found post-installation are very disruptive to fix.
You can address this in your design to an extent ...if you can design in accessible pipe runs then the quality of your plumbing matters less.
Tiling is all about preparation and setting-out. The self-levelling spacer things work well (expensive though). Powder adhesive you mix yourself is much easier to work with than the premixed stuff in tubs.
Basically it is all DIYable. As long as you have access to a working toilet/bathroom take as long as you like.

I think the 'easy answer' is that I should do it DIY. I still find this surprising... I really did think it would be easier (if more expensive) to get someone who does this professionally to do the job.
The self-levelling spacer hint was helpful - thanks. I knew tiling with big tiles would need something like that... Youtube demonstrated and they look straightforward enough. I wouldn't have anticipated powder adhesive would be easier to work with... intuition suggests that pre-mixed should eliminate the risk of the wrong consistency... I didn't have any problem with the powder adhesive I used for coving around the ceiling.... so thanks for that advice, too.
The plumbing looks more difficult... how much more difficult is hard for me to anticipate - at least until I've removed the existing en-suite. A plus-side for 'mostly DIY' route is that I think it should be much easier to find a plumber to do an afternoon's work than it would be to find a bathroom installer to do the entire job.
I do have a separate bathroom... but the only proper shower I have is in the en-suite. The bathroom needs a similar update to the en-suite. If it was only my ablution requirements - I'd gut the en-suite today and let it take as long as it takes... probably months. If I take the DIY route, I need to get it finished ASAP - ideally in under a month... or using about 4-5 actual days I'm not doing something else.

 

[blup]

If you have another bathroom and can route the plumbing so the en suite can be isolated while everything else stays on then time pressure is reduced. Long flexible double ended compression hoses are good for temporary diversions, push fit stop ends a life saver. If you work out what goes where and give yourself time, its doable.

You could get a plumber in to do that and cut costs, but work out the pipe runs etc so he knows exactly what to quote for.

If you sub it out its not necessarily quicker when you factor in availability or being let down, there can be a big knock on effect time wise

Blup