Does this need certifying and why?

[samohtom]

Hi. I've recently found this link explaining changes to part P:-

http://www.niceic.com/Uploads/File8952.pdf

So my question is regarding work in a kitchen (no longer deemed a special location) involving extending the ring main to add one double socket then running a 3A fused spur off this to power cooker hood+LED lighting+wireless bluetooth speaker. As far as I can see, this would no longer be notifiable work, therefore presumably I don't need to pay an electrician to certify it/sign it off?

Existing electrician who's quoted me has said it needs to be certified as it's an alteration to an existing circuit, but I quote:-


'All other electrical installation work is non notifiable - namely additions and alterations to existing installations outside special locations, and replacements, repairs and maintenance anywhere.'

Am I misunderstanding? I've sent an e-mail to my LABC to see what they come back with too...will be interesting to find out

 

[EFLImpudence]

So my question is regarding work in a kitchen (no longer deemed a special location)

Never was actually a "special location".

involving extending the ring main to add one double socket then running a 3A fused spur off this to power cooker hood+LED lighting+wireless bluetooth speaker. As far as I can see, this would no longer be notifiable work, therefore presumably I don't need to pay an electrician to certify it/sign it off?

You do not.

Existing electrician who's quoted me has said it needs to be certified as it's an alteration to an existing circuit, but I quote:-

'All other electrical installation work is non notifiable - namely additions and alterations to existing installations outside special locations, and replacements, repairs and maintenance anywhere.'

Am I misunderstanding?

Only the terminology; notification and certification are unrelated.
Certification - issue certificate after testing.
All work (within reason) must be tested and a certificate issued.

 

[samohtom]

...so you are saying there's a legal requirement to get non-notifiable work certificated? I own the property, it's for my own use etc. If it does need certifying, can I just get any competent electrician (they wouldn't even need part P presumably as it's non notifiable work) to issue a minor works certificate for it and that would be adequate?

 

[EFLImpudence]

...so you are saying there's a legal requirement to get non-notifiable work certificated?

Well, strictly speaking, yes.
Part P (the law) says all electrical work must be done to ensure safety.
You can't know this unless it is tested when you may as well record the results.

I own the property, it's for my own use etc. If it does need certifying, can I just get any competent electrician (they wouldn't even need part P presumably as it's non notifiable work) to issue a minor works certificate for it and that would be adequate?

An electrician can only certify his own work.
You can test and issue a certificate for your work if you know how and have the equipment.
You probably don't and haven't so it's up to you.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Existing electrician who's quoted me has said it needs to be certified as it's an alteration to an existing circuit,

but I quote:-
'All other electrical installation work is non notifiable - namely additions and alterations to existing installations outside special locations, and replacements, repairs and maintenance anywhere.'

Am I misunderstanding? I've sent an e-mail to my LABC to see what they come back with too...will be interesting to find out

There is a difference between notification and certification!
With regards to the law/Part P and BS7671 guidance all electrical installations work should be inspected, tested and a certificate issued for that work, regardless of whether it is a new board, new circuit, or an addition/extension to any existing circuit or the location in which it is installed. This is to prove that the work done is safe to put into service.

Notification is a procedure where building controls must be made aware of any new circuits or new boards being installed (regardless of location) or if electrical installation work is performed in an area deemed to be a special location, notified work will still require inspection, testing and certification.
//www.diynot.com/wiki/Electrics:part_p:Statutory-Instrument

 

[Risteard]

An electrician can only certify his own work.

Leaving aside rules for notification as these do not apply here, an Electrician can sign a declaration as the Inspector on a three signature Electrical Installation Certificate. The caveat is, of course, that he/she would need to be there at stages of the Construction in order to carry out a visual inspection whilst this remained possible.

 

[davelx]

The work you describe is, as you suspect, not notifiable. The work still has to comply with Part P of the building regulations, but compliance with the BS7671 wiring regulations assures that. No Building Regulations Completion Certificate is required for non-notifiable work.

The only certification required to comply with BS7671 wiring regulations, is that required by the wiring regulations themselves, which in this case would be a Minor Works Certificate. Normally, this would be completed by the electrician himself after he has tested his work. If you are doing the work and have the knowledge and equipment to carry out the required inspection and testing, you can complete the MWC yourself, job done.

If you can't do this, then you could employ an electrician to do the inspection and testing, and then use the three part Electrical Installation Certificate, with you signing the Design and Construction sections and the electrician signing the Inspection and Testing section

I suspect it would be easier and probably no more expensive (possibly cheaper) just to get the electrician to do the whole job and provide the MWC.

In either case - there is no involvement of the LABC.

 

[ericmark]

The problem seems to be in the names given to things and I have to admit not well selected so here we go.
Notifiable - Have to tell building control your doing work which will involve a fee either direct or through a scheme operator.
Completion certificate - Issued direct from build control normally after them getting a electrical installation certificate.
Compliance certificate - As above but when scheme operator is used.
Electrical installation Certificate - Can have up to three signatures but has to be the person who did that bit of the work. Although in theroy you could sign for design and installation and have some one else do and sign for inspection and testing it is not that easy finding some one willing to do it.
Electrical Minor Works Certificate - Similar to above but not so many details to fill in.
In theroy if it needs a EIC then it needs notifying is EMWC then unless consumer unit or bathroom involved in England it does not require notifying.
Competent person - A person who possesses sufficient technical knowledge, relevant practical skills and experience for the nature of the electrical work undertaken and is able at all times to prevent danger and, where appropriate, injury to him/herself and others.
Competent person scheme - Where an electrician pays a scheme operator to notify the LABC where required.
Yes rather a bad selection on name.

So yes you should fill in an Electrical Minor Works Certificate and clearly do all the tests required to be able to complete it however once done all you need to do is file it. All it does is ensure you don't miss vital tests clearly you can't put down the earth loop impedance if you have not tested to find it out.

This is why we say it is unlikely any DIY work will comply. However using a plug in tester with loop test will in the main highlight faults and although not exactly how it should be done it is unlikely there will be any great danger if one is used and any faults indicated are corrected. Also of course test the RCD with push button. Again in theroy special meter is required which also measures time taken to trip but in practice push the button.

So yes it needs Certifying with an Electrical Minor Works Certificate but you can do that yourself.

 

[ericmark]

An electrician can only certify his own work.

Leaving aside rules for notification as these do not apply here, an Electrician can sign a declaration as the Inspector on a three signature Electrical Installation Certificate. The caveat is, of course, that he/she would need to be there at stages of the Construction in order to carry out a visual inspection whilst this remained possible.

The work if not notifiable will require a Minor Works Certificate and I have not seen provision for three signatures on the IET version of the Certificate.

In real terms the person doing the work could get an Electrical Installation Condition Report and copy over the readings but also could just get an electrician to test and give them the reading but at the end what happens to the Minor Works Certificate who ever looks at it again? It just goes into the bundle of paperwork to be passed on if the house is sold.

 

[Risteard]

The work if not notifiable will require a Minor Works Certificate and I have not seen provision for three signatures on the IET version of the Certificate.

Whilst a Minor Electrical Installation Works Certificate COULD be ued in this instance, there is certainly nothing precluding an Electrical Installation Certificate being used. It would mean more writing etc. but it is certainly legitimate.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

The work if not notifiable will require a Minor Works Certificate and I have not seen provision for three signatures on the IET version of the Certificate.

Whilst a Minor Electrical Installation Works Certificate COULD be ued in this instance, there is certainly nothing precluding an Electrical Installation Certificate being used. It would mean more writing etc. but it is certainly legitimate.

This is very true, minor works can be documented on an EIC.
So no loop hole there.

 

[EFLImpudence]

The work if not notifiable will require a Minor Works Certificate and I have not seen provision for three signatures on the IET version of the Certificate.

The type of certificate has nothing to do with being notifiable or not.

It is true that the few remaining notifiable works in England may well mean that anything requiring an EIC is notifiable and an MWC not but not because of the certificate type.

However, in Wales still, it is definitely not so.

 

[JohnW2]

It is true that the few remaining notifiable works in England may well mean that anything requiring an EIC is notifiable and an MWC not .... but not because of the certificate type.

I don't think that even that always works ... would not 'minor' work undertaken in bathroom zones be appropriately documented/'certified' by an MWC, even though notifiable?

In fact, if one goes by BS7671's definition of 'minor work' and 631.3, then the only works that necessarily require an EIC are those involving provision of a 'new circuit'. It appears that, in any other situation, one can issue an MWC for each circuit involved in the works.

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

It is true that the few remaining notifiable works in England may well mean that anything requiring an EIC is notifiable and an MWC not .... but not because of the certificate type.

I don't think that even that always works ...

I did say "may well".

would not 'minor' work undertaken in bathroom zones be appropriately documented/'certified' by an MWC, even though notifiable?

I dare say you could think of something.

In fact, if one goes by BS7671's definition of 'minor work' and 631.3, then the only works that necessarily require an EIC are those involving provision of a 'new circuit'. It appears that, in any other situation, one can issue an MWC for each circuit involved in the works.

I dare say you could.

However, were the work 'notifiable but minor' I suspect that an EIC 'may well' be more suitable for recording the relevant information.

 

[JohnW2]

I did say "may well". ... I dare say you could think of something. ... I dare say you could. ... However, were the work 'notifiable but minor' I suspect that an EIC 'may well' be more suitable for recording the relevant information.

I hope you understand that I was merely trying to reinforce your statement that the type of certification does not affect (let alone determine) whether something is notifiable or not

Kind Regards, John