Downlighters, regulations etc....

[JDLDIY]

Hi there. Can anyone tell me what the current situation is regarding the regulations and installation of downlighters etc? We are having to think about lighting now and we seem to want to install them in all the rooms, although I have reservations about it re cost and also noise. Do we have to install fire safe/enclose ones if there are rooms above? What is the best way to go, low voltage or mains? If I remember correctly the low voltage ones are slightly brighter?

Also if anyone knows of an alternative I should be thinking about please let me know, strikes me that where a room could be lit with a single 100W bulb you might need 300-350W of downlighters!

Many thanks for any input, now off to the wholesalers for some brochures....

 

[ban-all-sheds]

To show my age by paraphrasing an old TV comedy show.

RULE 1) No downlighters.

RULE 2) Fire-retarding hoods or luminaires are only required if the ceiling is a fire compartment barrier, which unless your house has more than 2 storeys will only be the case if it's between a garage and a room.

RULE 3) No downlighters.

RULE 4) AFAIK, the noise regulations only apply to new-builds.

RULE 5) No downlighters.

RULE 6) There is no rule 6.

RULE 7) No downlighters.

 

[JDLDIY]

LOL! And thank you for the quick response ban. Question is how do you achieve a modern look without them?

 

[luminaire]

Have a look here

Low energy downlighters are much more efficient.

 

[Taylortwocities]

LOL! And thank you for the quick response ban. Question is how do you achieve a modern look without them?

I agree with BAS. Dreadful things. Do remember that today's modern look doesnt last long. If you fit downlighters you'll be faced with covering over the swiss cheese effect ceiling in a few years time.

There was an interesting article in the Mail last week about the new generation of super-bright LEDs. See http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/li...article_id=504837&in_page_id=1965&in_a_source

If this takes off I would expect a new generation of light fittings using LED super-bright technology. These would then be considered "a modern look"..

 

[ban-all-sheds]

How do you achieve a modern look to the outside of your house without stone cladding?

Not being facetious, but you need to stop looking at it from the POV of a briefly fashionable design statement. As you observe in your OP, you need several times as much lighting with the things, so they're wasteful and expensive to run, unless you find that you can use CFLs, and lamp life is short.

And the lamps are going to be phased out - can't remember the timescales, but in a few years you might be looking at the prospect of replacing all your ceilings, and it's likely that if you're trying to sell your house in a few years time that prospective buyers will be thinking "if we buy this place we'll have to replace the ceilings".

I think the trend for downlighters is declining, so you can either start off with something on the way out, or start looking round for alternatives.

Not easy I know - I'm having major work done on the house this year, and I've got to find replacements for my downlighters. For hall and landing I'm going to use Thorn Chalice 190s, but not sure they're what I want in the dining and living rooms etc. Maybe the kitchen - I'll know better when they're up.

 

[Dippy]

I won't comment on the theme of 'fashion' because of course that is subjective. However I would agree with the sentiment that you should think carefully about why you want downlighters because they are a lot more effort and expense than other forms of lighting, and you need more to get the same illumination.

In regard to regulations please contact your LABC. Contrary to general advice here, MY LABC insist on fire-hoods in my 2-storey house. Your LABC may be different.

From my limited research, ELV halogens are definitely better than LV ones. I think this is basically because more work can be put into the filament to focus the light. The more energy efficient lamps (relatively speaking of course) are ONLY available in ELV. However they do cost a lot more. Of course you need a transformer too, and should steer clear of cheap ones as they will have a limited lifespan.

I am unsure about whether or nor halogen lamps will be banned. As far as I can tell, the EU has no firm plans yet. There needs to be a replacement available, and right now there is only CFL replacement for LV halogens, and even then the size difference is a problem. ELV halogens can only be replaced by LED, however this cannot be true replacement as the transformer would need to be replaced as well.

My personal opinion is that there is probably even more scope to increase the efficiency of ELV halogens so I don't think they will be banned for a long time, and when they are the LED lamps technology will mean that there is a genuine replacement available.

Another thing that your LABC might be interested in (assuming you need to involve them that is), is energy efficiency. Again this is a subjective issue as approved document L1 is not prescriptive. In my case I told my LABC that I plan a mix of high efficiency halogen, LED and flourescent (CFL downlighters and also tubular) in my house, and that about a third of the lamps will be high efficiency (although in reality it might be more than a half). The LABC said that was acceptable (which suggests that they hadn't really got a clue).

 

[Kes]

Just to mention a tip posted here some time ago for kitchen lighting, install florescent tubes with diffuser on top and at the rear of the wall cupboards. The light bouces off the ceilings, assuming that the ceilings are white-ish. This is the greatest tip in this forum, thanks to whoever it was. We have two 30w 100mm tubes providing the main light to the kitchen, and under cab flors to show whatever food I happen to be spoiling at the time.

Get electronic ballast for silence, mount on small L brackets about 1" off the cupboard top and up to the rear edge of the cupboards (where there is another 1" gap). You could even fit reflective material under the flors to increase the light given out. Kitchen lit for 60w, £30, future proofed, no unsightly grossly expensive and rubbish designer (I hate that word) fittings.

Dunno about the living rooms though.

Rgds,

 

[Taylortwocities]

Dippy, your LABC are not correct in insisting on firehoods. Have you challenged them on this and asked them to produce the regulation that requires this.

I did (working outside my regular area on a particular job, I have to say..) and they backed down.

 

[JDLDIY]

Many thanks to all, most appreciated. I think if I do go for some (I am waiting to see some up to date lighting catalogues before I decide on the lighting), I might as well go for the ones which have their own integral fire hoods, might stop a bit of noise transfer as well that way.

Kes, I love the idea of sticking fluorescent tubes above the cupboards, great idea, but what is electronic ballast?

I have some downlighters at the moment which are ELV (On transformers, one per fitting). They are on a dimmer switch and the buzzing from the dimmer and from the fittings/transformers is unbearable. Any suggestions as to what to do to avoid that going forward?

Last question, who are the big lighting companies out there? The wholesalers are getting some brochures together for me but I could do with surfing some websites to get some ideas. Google is not helping me to pick them out. Any manufacturers to avoid? Who's top of the tree for quality etc?

 

[Kes]

Electronic ballast is the box of electronics in the tube fitting that starts and keeps the tube going. It is silent, has no separate starter, and eliminates flicker - so I'm told. You just have to buy the packs that say Electronic Ballast on the. Probably someone more experienced can pass a more qualified opinion.

Coincidentally I've just added two more tubes above the wall cupboards in the shady corner of the kitchen. It's about 4m sq, and I, or we, have a 30w and 18w each side. There's bags of light for 96w. If you can, borrow an old fluor fitting and rig it up temp to see the effect, and to convince your other half.

 

[JDLDIY]

Thanks Kes, I'm definitely going to try this out. This electronic ballast, do you remove the standard starter then and wire this in instead, or do you have to find a fitting without a standard starter?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Nice idea to bounce the light of the ceiling, but for my new kitchen I plan to have the cupboards (or cupboards + a small fillet) going right to the ceiling - no more cupboard tops to collect grease, fluff and dead insects.

Unless I decide to use large-ish recessed lights, I might go for something like this:

Pic doesn't show it that well, but some of the light does go upwards to reflect off the ceiling around the edges.

 

[Dippy]

Dippy, your LABC are not correct in insisting on firehoods. Have you challenged them on this and asked them to produce the regulation that requires this.

I 'gently' challanged him and he is rigid on it. He insists that my ground floor ceilings have a 30 min modified fire resistance and that by cutting holes in it I will be degrading that resistance.

I'm not sure where I stand on the issue right now. Part of me doesn't like to do it if I don't have to (as you suggest), however the other part of me thinks that I should do it (I do have a family to protect after all).

***

I agree about the idea of using flourescents above units to uplight the ceiling. That's what I plan to do in my kitchen and bathrooms, so it's good to hear others supporting it!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I 'gently' challanged him and he is rigid on it. He insists that my ground floor ceilings have a 30 min modified fire resistance and that by cutting holes in it I will be degrading that resistance.

Well he's wrong, as tests have been done and downlighter holes in a 30-minute ceiling have little or no effect:

In 1996, the DoE and TRADA commissioned TRADA
Technology Limited (TTL), a member of the TTL
Chiltern group of companies, to test the effect of
recessed downlighters (with no boxing in or fire
hoods) on the fire resistance of plasterboard ceilings
with conventional rectangular joists. TTL has been
involved in fire research and testing for many years
and is the UK’s leading authority on the fire
protection of timber. During 1994/95, TTL carried out
the tests. The results of the tests were published in
the July 1996 edition of Building Control magazine.
These results were, perhaps, surprising in that they
confirmed that downlighters, even without being
boxed in and with no fire hoods, in plasterboard
ceilings have little significant effect on fire resistance
ratings up to 30 minutes. It must be inferred from
these tests therefore, that, at least with plasterboard
ceilings with conventional rectangular joists, it is not
necessary to ‘box in’ luminaries or to use fire hoods
for the purpose of restoring the fire resistance
capability of ceilings which are not of fire
compartment construction.

Either point him at that article, or ask him to go back to the office and look in the July '96 edition of Building Control magazine, if they keep back issues.

I'm not sure where I stand on the issue right now.

Depends how firm you want to be. At one end of the scale you can do what he wants, at the other you can say "I don't have to, I'm not going to, and you can't do anything about it".

Part of me doesn't like to do it if I don't have to (as you suggest), however the other part of me thinks that I should do it (I do have a family to protect after all).

Install good quality interlinked alarms, of the appropriate type (heat/fire/smoke) according to where they are.

Have fire extinguishers on each floor.

Get some emergency exit ladders that you use to escape from 1st floor windows. And practice using them.

Quite honestly - if you're still in a room 30 minutes after a fire has broken out in the room below it, you probably aren't going to be getting out except in a body bag...