Electric meters with pulse output. Seals.

[JohnW2]

again just an idea: ... The coin meter would be powered via a circuit not on the rcd. When the money ran out a condition (earth connected to neutral (plus resistor?)) would occur and remain that would trip the rcd. If you tried to reset the rcd, it would trip in your hand. Feed the meter, condition is removed, reset the rcd. The consumer unit is always accessible to the tenant. just and idea - if anyone could point out the dangers or modifications.

I had envisaged that you would effect just a momentary N-E (or L-E, via a resistor) connection to trip the RCD, but it sounds as if you are talking about leaving that 'fault' present until coins are deposited. Although I can't, off the top of my head, think of any specific danger of that, it really does not sound/'feel' very nice at all!

Kind Regards, John.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Years ago I used to have 4 separate meters. Tenants would run long extension cords to socket that were not on their meter (living room). So now I bill as a whole. Everyone's energy requirement is the same, they all have a fridge and they all have a tv. I let them police themselves. They seem to be consuming 3 pounds per day - there are 4 of them and the meter only takes pound coins.

So there's one supplier meter, and after that you propose to have 1 meter of your own and 1 coin mechanism which will cut off the entire house when it runs out?

 

[RMIM]

Years ago I used to have 4 separate meters. Tenants would run long extension cords to socket that were not on their meter (living room). So now I bill as a whole. Everyone's energy requirement is the same, they all have a fridge and they all have a tv. I let them police themselves. They seem to be consuming 3 pounds per day - there are 4 of them and the meter only takes pound coins.

So there's one supplier meter, and after that you propose to have 1 meter of your own and 1 coin mechanism which will cut off the entire house when it runs out?

It's currently like that now - but with a mechanical meter. That I bought and is purpose built for this.

I wish to replace this meter with my own electronic version as it will be more accurate (take economy 7 into account etc) and can hold more money. Whether it will cut the electric I don't know if I need it to do that yet - but it's something I have to plan for.

Do you see any problems? It's all legal - as long as it safe and the rate is the same I get billed. Any electrical work will be done by an electrician - I will only build the unit and do the electronic side. The most I will do on the electrical side (if any) is connect my output to the contactor.

As for the meter of my own, the cheaper option is to use the meter that is already there (suppliers meter) but using a non-intrusive method to connect my coin meter. (photo-diode)

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I don't know about the legailty of the coin-meter cut-off.

I do know that installing an electrical device which deliberately creates a fault condition would contravene the Wiring Regulations.

Surely you can get proper coin or prepaid card mechanisms which work the way supplier ones do?

As for your meter being more accurate - it matters not - you'll have to pay what the supplier meter says, you may not charge your tenants more, and you would be foolish to charge them less.

 

[RMIM]

I don't know about the legailty of the coin-meter cut-off.

I do know that installing an electrical device which deliberately creates a fault condition would contravene the Wiring Regulations.

Surely you can get proper coin or prepaid card mechanisms which work the way supplier ones do?

As for your meter being more accurate - it matters not - you'll have to pay what the supplier meter says, you may not charge your tenants more, and you would be foolish to charge them less.

HI BAS,

It must be legal - as the suppliers own pay meters do this - and they cut the whole house off. This you could say is a safety issue as you could be in left the dark when it cuts off.

With my meter I can select only ring mains to go off with the contactor. It's neither here or there as far as I'm concern, if they can do it (plunge you in darkness), so can I.

The rcd idea was an idea - why choose that over a contactor, because the rcd idea cost nothing, a 100A contactor would cost over 70quid.

Why choose the contactor idea over the rcd idea, as you have just pointed out it contravenes some laws. This is why I'm here remember - to see what's legal and what's not.

So far we have learnt:

1. that I cant open seals and connect to pulse output direct - so I must buy my own pulse meter or make a photo-diode detector.

2. if I wish to cut the electric off, I must use a contactor.

I already have a coin meter, but it's limited. And yes they do sell a electronic version of what I want - but it will not be as good as what I could build (once I work out how to build it).

remember - im not building the contactor, im buying one. my coin unit runs off 9v dc. it's all as safe and legal as what you could buy ready made.

this is what you are talking about BAS

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Electroni..._Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item231194f60b

I dont want one, as I believe I can build better, for a lot less money, the very essence of what is DIY.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

It must be legal - as the suppliers own pay meters do this - and they cut the whole house off. This you could say is a safety issue as you could be in left the dark when it cuts off.

You do not think it possible that electricity suppliers might have different statutory rights to private landlords?

Fair enough. If I were you I'd consult a lawyer about it though, as you propose to deny them electricity at a point when they don't contractually owe you any money, and although IANAL, that seems to me as if that might not be lawful.

With my meter I can select only ring mains to go off with the contactor. It's neither here or there as far as I'm concern, if they can do it (plunge you in darkness), so can I.

If you say so.

Good luck in court.

The rcd idea was an idea - why choose that over a contactor, because the rcd idea cost nothing, a 100A contactor would cost over 70quid.

Oh well, that's OK then - I mean, why spend £70 when you could make something yourself which will cut off your tenant's electricity by creating a fault in the wiring even though they aren't in arrears.

Why choose the contactor idea over the rcd idea, as you have just pointed out it contravenes some laws. This is why I'm here remember - to see what's legal and what's not.

Are you interested in seeing what makes you a prize prat or not?

So far we have learnt:

1. that I cant open seals and connect to pulse output direct - so I must buy my own pulse meter or make a photo-diode detector.

We still haven't learned why you need another meter. We still have NAFC what you will do with 2 readings if they are not the same.

2. if I wish to cut the electric off, I must use a contactor.

And we still haven't learned whether you may do that.

We know that you claim you may, but then you think it might be OK to build your own switching device to interpose in an electricity supply and create a condition which causes a safety device to operate, so your judgement is highly suspect.

I already have a coin meter, but it's limited. And yes they do sell a electronic version of what I want - but it will not be as good as what I could build (once I work out how to build it)....I dont want one, as I believe I can build better, for a lot less money, the very essence of what is DIY.

You're a prize prat.

 

[ricicle]

EDIT

 

[RMIM]

You're a prize prat.

Sorry bas did not have time to separate your quotes.

I'm not sure BAS - that is why I'm here, to have things that would have never occurred to me pointed out. It still seems strange though - the supplier can cut you off but a landlord using a secondary meter cant. All the purpose built coin/cards meters, be they mechanical or digital, like the ones I have posted will all do just that.

Well the law is complex yes, you never know. But what about all the purpose built meters that are on sale and do just that?

I listed 2 possible ideas (as someone asked me how would I) that could achieve the same goal and asked which was suitable, if any. Or an alternative - I was given an alternative, by your kind self, which was the contactor. I accept the contactor idea and understand why the rcd idea is not suitable. Not that I have decided to incorporate any cut off device yet, if ever.

We need a second meter/coin as it a multi dwelling - they wish to pay upfront rather than at the end.

The same as what the electric board do - they either debit or credit your account. If the printed bill (you submit a reading every month) is 100 pounds and you collected 96 pounds then you have to collect 4 pounds and vice versa.

I think it might be ok to build this device, this is why I came here to see if it was possible or not. I'm happy for someone to correct me and say no it's not possible due to .......

I have purpose built meters, I do believe it is possible to build a better one, what wrong with what I have said? Mechanical verses digital? I see that as superior.

Yes once I work out how to build it, what wrong with that? I have to piece several components together. coin validator, kwh info, process this info (subtract one from the other) display the info. These are things I must learn, I plan to use a pic.

I'm a bit lost by your post BAS - I can understand if you tell me it's not legal for some safety reason as an equipment has to pass some kind of standard (but like I said this is a modular build, any components I use would pass) so cant be DIY. And originally I had no intension of cutting the electric off as this makes the build more involved, I was replying to someone as to how I would achieve this.

Instead you give me a reason that prepay is perhaps illegal.




You're happy for me to buy a purpose built coin meter, that will do everything that you have just stated as being illegal. (cut the electric off and take money from people before they owe money)

Yet you are not happy for me to get a qualified electrical to fit a contactor then branch it to the output of my 12dc device.

I'm happy to let this project go if it was in anyway dangerous or did not comply with the law. It's a secondary meter - they are legal.

What if I don’t branch it to the electrics? (which I was never going to do, due to the added cost, the tenants always topup before it runs out). Does that now make it ok? Hell what if I even make it solar powered so it does not even use an adaptor plug into the mains? Is it legal then as a secondary meter?

 

[Stoday]

It's reasonably simple if you look in the right places. As for the tenant losing supply if he doesn't pay, well that's his fault, provided the landlord isn't overcharging.

Landlords can avoid overcharging by following guidance published by OFGEM — the Office of Gas and Electricity Markets.

Click for pdf

 

[RMIM]

It's reasonably simple if you look in the right places. As for the tenant losing supply if he doesn't pay, well that's his fault, provided the landlord isn't overcharging.

Landlords can avoid overcharging by following guidance published by OFGEM — the Office of Gas and Electricity Markets.

Click for pdf

Thanks for the info. I think it's easy to charge the right amount as the rate is printed on your bill, even if you have a 2 or 3 tier system, just use a weighted average. And if I ever get to build this system it can take into account all 3 tiers, but some people seem to have doubts over its legality.

As I have said before any +/- is corrected when the actual bill comes out every month from a reading not estimate.

All bills are pinned on the wall for all to see.

The article discusses refunds etc. this must mean prepay is legal, as why would you need to refund if you have not accepted money in advance of the bill?