Electrics and plastering

[catmando]

Hi guys,

I am having my kitchen done and yesterday the electrician came and fitted connectors to old sockets that we no longer use so that they can be plastered over.

Today the plasterer came and since he has been the electricity supply to the kitchen and living room will not stay on! I keep fipping the breaker switch and it just goes off again!

Is it because 'wet' plaster has got into these sockets? Will it dry out?
or will I have to chase these all out again??!!!

Please help

 

[plugwash]

it really shocks me the the kind of F***** DANGEROUS A*******S that call themselves electricians

and frankly im surprised that even the plaster accepted/didn't question this

what is tripping? is it the mcb for the individual cuircuit is it a rcd covering multiple cuircuits in the cu or what

terminal block inside socket boxes and then filled with plaster is a plain dangerous way to join a ring

joining inside a wall while possible is expensive to do properly and should be avioded if it all possible

best bet especially if you have an opening to the underfloor space easilly accessible is to cut the ring cables at the floor and join them with junction boxes in the floor viod after wokring out the route of the ring with a multimeter

a report to tradeing standards is also almost certainly adviseable

 

[dingbat]

frankly im surprised that even the plaster accepted/didn't question this

I'm not. Even if the plasterer had an idea it was wrong I somehow doubt he would have turned the work down - not his problem would be his way of thinking. This happens all the time, along with things like ring circuits broken when extensions are added to a property, multiple sockets on spurs, live cables taped up and left in floor voids, circuit breakers or fuses uprated to cure nuisance tripping/fusing. The list goes on... and on...

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I am having my kitchen done and yesterday the electrician came and fitted connectors to old sockets that we no longer use so that they can be plastered over.

Did he have his own horse? And did his big hat fit properly? And were his boots'n'spurs nice and shiny?

Today the plasterer came and since he has been the electricity supply to the kitchen and living room will not stay on! I keep fipping the breaker switch and it just goes off again!

Is it because 'wet' plaster has got into these sockets?

A reasonable theory.

Will it dry out?

Yes, but (a) you don't want to wait that long, and (b) even when it dries out and the electricity works again, it still won't be right.

or will I have to chase these all out again??!!!

If you can find where the sockets used to be, and the metal boxes were left behind, then while the plaster is still soft, cut around the edges of the boxes and remove the plaster to expose the wires, so that you can then get someone in to do a proper job.

If you've not paid the first guy, don't. If you have paid him, get a written report from the real electrician, ask him if he'd be prepared to testify in court if it comes to it, and sue him for the cost of having it put right.

Are you PMing, and subbing the work out yourself, or have you employed a builder?

 

[catmando]

Thanks for all your replies guys.

I eventually chased out one of the sockets, took off the connector block and hey presto the electric stayed on!

The electrician is coming back tonight to take a look. He is not a cowboy but a properly trained electrician that I have known for a long time that works for a repuitable company, I will however be questioning his work practices when I see him later.

I take it then that what he has done by putting connectors on and then having them filled over with plaster is dangerous? What could potentially happen as there are still some 'live' sockets that have been fitted with connectors and then buried under the plaster.

How else other than ripping out all the cables can you make these old sockets safe to be covered over?

Thanks for all your help.

 

[plugwash]

if you can get under the floor then the easiest way is to cut and join the ring under the floor leaving the cables in the wall dead

a blanking plate with terminal block behind is another option though this will stick out from the wall slightly why may interfere swith yout cupboards

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Thanks for all your replies guys.

I eventually chased out one of the sockets, took off the connector block and hey presto the electric stayed on!

The electrician is coming back tonight to take a look. He is not a cowboy but a properly trained electrician that I have known for a long time that works for a repuitable company

He really really really should have known better!

I will however be questioning his work practices when I see him later.

How about asking him to post here as a guest to defend his methods?

I take it then that what he has done by putting connectors on and then having them filled over with plaster is dangerous?

Well, you've seen for yourself that the wet plaster was causing a short. There might have come a time when the plaster had dried out enough so that the fault current was not large enough to trip the breaker but was large enough to cause overheating. Or was it an earth fault? Is the breaker on the kitchen circuit an MCB or an RCBO?

But above all it contravenes the wiring regulations concerning the accessibility of junction boxes.

What could potentially happen as there are still some 'live' sockets that have been fitted with connectors and then buried under the plaster.

How else other than ripping out all the cables can you make these old sockets safe to be covered over?

As plugwash said, maybe you could isolate and bypass that entire bit of the ring. If not, ask your electrician friend, (who probably won't be feeling so friendly now) to use insulated crimped joints - it's OK to bury those.

 

[il78]

Just to offer some defence to the questioned electrician, I myself have been stumped by plasterers who like to hide and plaster over cables / socket boxes, granted these where not live. This electrician may have been offering a solution to the plasterer to make his job easier, when the plastering was finished the electrician would reinstate the sockets......

If not.......then BURN HIM........

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Mmmm. The only problem with that is that catmando said "the electrician came and fitted connectors to old sockets that we no longer use so that they can be plastered over."

I suppose we should ask this:

catmando - did you actually tell the electrician that those sockets were not being replaced and that the whole thing was going to be plastered over?

 

[catmando]

Thanks again guys,

Just to clarify a few things.

Firstly - yes the electrician did know that the sockets were redudant and were going to be plastered over.

Secondandly you were asking whether it was an earth fauly and if the kitchen circuit was a MCB or RCBO, my answer is I don't know sorry, I don't know much about electrics! All I know if my fusebox has a big red siwtch which cuts the whole power and then a smaller grey switch in the middle, - it was this switch that kept tripping out.

Also getting under the floor wasnt really an option, because the cables seem to be fed from the upstairs bedroom, this would of meant moving furniture and ripping carpets and floor boards up, - also I was running out of time, I needed all of this ready as the joiner is booked for this morning to come and fit my new kitchen!

Anyway, the electrician came back last night and I confronted him about this and he said if they are taped over then it shouldnt be a problem, he said he and others had done it in the past! I said I was not happy with this and asked him to fit a blanking plate which he did. Can any of you clarify how this is different from just having the cables plastered over? I mean the cables are still there live taped over, just sat behind a box rather than in the plaster.

Finally I found that I had a swtich in the kitchen that had a fuse next to it and a red light. We never switched it on in the past and everything worked, - my first thought was that it was for hot water or something, but that was taken care of by my central heating. Anyway after checking with a few people it did turn out to be for the immersion tank, aparently it will heat my hot water if I need it to instead of the central heating. I took the socket off and threw it as it was damaged and now I need another, but after going to B&Q this morning I could only find a swtich with a 13amp fuse but no red light (this was in chrome to match the other new sockets) so I bought that. My question is does it need to have a red light? Surely if I know which was is 'on' and 'off' I can just leave it in the off position. Also by the hot water tank is another on / off switch, surely I can just flick this off so I know I am never going to accidently be heating my water by electric rather than the central heating?

Phew hope all this makes sense and thanks for all your replies!

 

[dingbat]

When you say 'smaller' grey switch in the middle, does this switch sit next to a separate row of individual circuit breakers? If so, it's probably the RCD (Residual Current Device) which detects earth faults and disconnects those circuits. If, however, it is only the switch for your kitchen sockets it could either be a RCBO (Residual Current Breaker with Overload protection) or just a MCB (Miniature Circuit Breaker). MCBs trip out when overloaded or when a short circuit exists - if there's a bang and a flash when you try to reset it it's a short circuit. Sounds though as if you've got a small amount of current 'leaking' to earth via the wet plaster and tripping a residual current device of some kind. Either way it's not good.

By the regulations (which your spark should live by) all joints, except those considered permanent, must be accessible for inspection. screw connections are not permanent and hidden away behind plaster they become invisible and unreachable, whereas behind a blanking plate they are fully accessible, if not so attractive.

There is no requirement for your FCU (Fused Connection Unit) to have a neon, so long as on and off are readily identified. This switch in your kitchen is for your convenience, whereas the one by the hot tank fulfils the requirement for isolating switches to be close to the appliance/s they isolate.