Electrics setup all strange after electrician has been out. Riddle inside (stiff drink needed)...

[Mr. Clueless]

Before the electrician came out this is what would happen....

Turn fuse #2 (downstairs lights) off....
all downstairs lights would be killed except for the downstairs hall light - that would still work.
The landing (upstairs hall) light would be off. Basically the landing light at the top of the stairs & the hall light at the bottom of the stairs were back to front in terms of being on an upstairs/downstairs circuit.

The house/burglar alarm also worked.

Then the electrician came out when we were having work done on the living room.

Basically the living room floor was ripped up, joists included.
3 additional mains sockets were wired in & the electrician was doing something in with the fusebox i could hear.

Now the light setup is strange (with the fuses) & the house/burglar alarm no longer works.

The alarm guy has been out & said there's no power to the alarm, which he thought ran on the downstairs socket circuit. The electrician has since said this isn't true & that it runs on the lights circuit.

NOW....... when you flick fuse #2 (downstairs lights) off, depending on what switches are on/off results in differing outcomes.......

*There's 3 lights in the kitchen/diner by the way


IF.......

• The landing (upstairs) light is turned on using the downstairs switch (there is a switch upstairs & downstairs for this light) AND the kitchen/diner lights are off .... then all the switches don't work downstairs except for the downstairs hall which does work
• The landing light switch is on upstairs (same as above) AND the kitchen/diner lights are on (that's the difference) ... then the hall downstairs will turn its light on/off (same as above) HOWEVER the landing switch downstairs will turn the landing light on/off upstairs AND ALSO the kitchen/diner lights.

• The landing light is turned on using the upstairs switch (so same as above except the upstairs light is turned on by the other switch now) AND the kitchen/diner lights are off .... then all downstairs lights are off AND the landing but the downstairs hall switch still works.
• The landing light is on upstairs (same as above) AND the kitchen/diner lights are on (the difference from the previous example) .... then same outcome - downstairs lights are off including the landing upstairs, but the downstairs hall switch still operates its light ..... HOWEVER unlike the previous example where the upstairs light was on & the kitchen lights were on, the downstairs hall switch in this instance does not interfere with the kitchen/diner lights.

I really hope you can follow that because it was a royal PITA going through all the sequences.


Basically we're just wanting to know what's likely happened to make everything go all strange & how it can be put right (we know an electrician will need to come out & we'll be contacting the same one when they come back from holiday).

 

[oldbutnotdead]

If your lights still work when the circuit breaker/fuse is pulled then they're getting power from somewhere else. Be worth determining where the power is coming from (if you're on MCBs rather than fuses, set a scenario where a light is on then switch breakers off til the light goes off). Won't surprise me at all if you do this and find that the downstairs ring final is powering the lighting.

Then if you're really curious, switch off everything except fuse/breaker#2 and see if any lights still work- if they do, see if there's any switch combination that gets power to your alarm panel.

And sod waiting for this character to return from holiday- he/she has left your wiring in a potentially dangerous condition. He/she shouldn't have left the job with it in that state.

Out of curiousity, did you get any paperwork from this electrician? (Adding 3 sockets to an existing ring final isn't notifiable but they really should have done some testing before energising)

Back to original question- the wiring for the lighting circuits has obviously been disturbed and reconnected incorrectly- there's all sorts of permutations with 2 way switches. If you'd done it yourself then you'd know which boxes you went in to (and if you'd taken photos with your phone before moving stuff you'd have been able to restore to previous condition). As it is you've paid a professional do do a job & they've made a boo boo. They need to rectify it ASAP.

 

[PBC_1966]

Without knowing the exact wiring arrangement with a situation like this it's impossible to say "Just go to this switch location and move this wire to that terminal," or anything that simple. But somewhere along the line he's managed to make a right hash-up of things in the lighting wiring and ended up cross-connecting the two lighting circuits.

 

[Mr. Clueless]

Oh & if it makes any difference whatsoever then my wife is fairly sure although granted not 100% sure, that fuse #3 that is labelled up as "kitchen" used to do something in the kitchen, although she can't remember what it controlled (hence why she's not 100% sure).

Now however, fuse #3 ("kitchen") does absolutely nothing at all.

We still haven't paid the second half of the bill yet. There's other things (although they're minor, such as the plastering) that still aren't right.

In terms of money i guess this is kind of like blank cheque? How much would you hold back from the final payment so far for this? If the electrician comes out & puts it good then all is fine, but in the event that they don't then i will need to get a different electrician who will charge.

I don't know if i should've said earlier or not or whether it matters or not - but i never actually got this electrician in. The builders brought the sparky in as part of the job, so i never actually paid direct. It'll all be lumped in with the building work/payment.

1) If i get this same electrician out to put it right (should i contact the spark direct or the builder boss?) would i be correct in expecting it to be fixed without charge?
2) How much money would you withhold from final payment for this?

And if it helps any at all...

Oh & sorry i forgot to answer - no, no paperwork from electrician at all. Everything was done through the builder. Whether i should've still got paperwork or not i don't know but i didn't get any.

Won't surprise me at all if you do this and find that the downstairs ring final is powering the lighting.

Treat me like an idiot for a second please ... what does that quote mean? Ring final? Do you mean when you switch the whole fusebox off so that everything is off? Or something else?

 

[Echo the husky]

If new sockets were added where is the RCD for them? By ring final he means the socket circuit which is often wired as a ring configuration.

 

[Mr. Clueless]

Be worth determining where the power is coming from (if you're on MCBs rather than fuses, set a scenario where a light is on then switch breakers off til the light goes off). Won't surprise me at all if you do this and find that the downstairs ring final is powering the lighting.

Then if you're really curious, switch off everything except fuse/breaker#2 and see if any lights still work- if they do, see if there's any switch combination that gets power to your alarm panel.

I've just had a chat with my wife who knows more about electrics than i do (not hard) & was hoping she'd get it, but no.

Not sure what MCBs are so i can't tell you if we're on them, sorry.

Also, why would we set such a scenario? Because all lights can be turned off, just depending how they're 'on' (if you get me?) depends on how you can switch them off. I hope that makes sense as i'm getting lost in this spaghetti maze.

And the more i think about it the more it makes sense to contact the builder boss directly about this & not the electrician since it was he who selected the electrician & gave them the work, not me (even though we've personally had this spark out before for a very minor job & they were fine).

 

[Echo the husky]

MCBs are those white things with the black switches in your fuse box.

OBND is asking you to switch all the lights on then see which ones go off when you swich off the MCBs at the fuse box.

 

[oldbutnotdead]

Well that's one question answered- doesn't appear to be any new cabling into the consumer unit. But another can of worms just exploded onto the scene.... unless the cabling for your new sockets is buried at least 50mm deep (or a few other exemptions) then the cabling (for the new sockets) requires RCD protection. No evidence of RCDs in that consumer unit so it would appear that your builder has engaged someone who messes with cabling rather than an electrician.

And another bijou issue to cloud the water- while adding 3 sockets to a ring final isn't notifiable, replacing a floor certainly is. Any sign of Building Control checking out the insulation required in your new floor or the dimensions of the joists vs the span?

Building regs notification is a naughty one- it is the responsibility of the property owner to ensure that this is done, but many property owners assume that the builder will look after it. Some builders do and some don't.

Payment- another tricky one. Did you get an itemised quote for the work?- if so then unless the 'electrician' restores the system to a safe functioning state then withhold the entire sum set aside for 'electrical works'. And contact- your contract is with the builder so get back to the builder (email/text/phone 'your electrician has left the job FUBAR, get it fixed right now'). You have no direct relationship with the 'electrician', the builder has engaged them so it is up to the builder to sort the issues.

 

[Mr. Clueless]

If new sockets were added where is the RCD for them? By ring final he means the socket circuit which is often wired as a ring configuration.

Please bear with me here. I know i'm going to have to get the pros in to deal with this but in the meantime i'm just trying to keep pace...

Is the RCD not that fuse #2 i mentioned which i uploaded a photo of? I just had to google what RCD was & looking at the images the image i uploaded look sort of similar so isn't that it? Although i guess from your post it isn't.

And are you saying the sockets are usually wired from say the fuse box, to a socket, to the next, the next etc & then back to the fuse box then? So the final would be either the final socket, whichever that may be, or the fuse box itself?

IF this is wrong then i'm honestly not being difficult, it just shows my lack of knowledge on electronics.

 

[oldbutnotdead]

Oh yes, you have MCBs (those wee things with lever switches on). It is safe to switch them off and on while an electrical load is applied (unlike rewireable fuses where you can get a fairly chunky arc if you pull one with any sort of load running).

 

[oldbutnotdead]

And the supply issue is a little bit critical. If your builders' mate (sorry, 'electrician') has linked the lighting circuits to the ring final circuits then (a) you (or more likely your wife) is at risk from cabling in a switch being live when the MCB marked as controlling that circuit is de energised and (b) small gauge cabling (1mm or 1.5mm) being 'protected' by an MCB of sufficient current carrying capacity to allow the conductors to be glowing red hot and still not trip. Get onto your builder now, this needs sorting tomorrow morning at the latest.

 

[Echo the husky]

Is the RCD not that fuse #2 i mentioned which i uploaded a photo of? I just had to google what RCD was & looking at the images the image i uploaded look sort of similar so isn't that it? Although i guess from your post it isn't.

No an RCD is totally different and performs a different function. All new 13A sockets in domestic installations are required to have this protection except under very special circumstances.

And are you saying the sockets are usually wired from say the fuse box, to a socket, to the next, the next etc & then back to the fuse box then?

Yes.

So the final would be either the final socket, whichever that may be, or the fuse box itself?

No, final is just what the circuit is referred to in general, i.e. it's not a distribution circuit. It's just a technical way of saying socket circuit.

 

[Mr. Clueless]

Well that's one question answered- doesn't appear to be any new cabling into the consumer unit. But another can of worms just exploded onto the scene.... unless the cabling for your new sockets is buried at least 50mm deep (or a few other exemptions) then the cabling (for the new sockets) requires RCD protection. No evidence of RCDs in that consumer unit so it would appear that your builder has engaged someone who messes with cabling rather than an electrician.

And another bijou issue to cloud the water- while adding 3 sockets to a ring final isn't notifiable, replacing a floor certainly is. Any sign of Building Control checking out the insulation required in your new floor or the dimensions of the joists vs the span?

Building regs notification is a naughty one- it is the responsibility of the property owner to ensure that this is done, but many property owners assume that the builder will look after it. Some builders do and some don't.

Payment- another tricky one. Did you get an itemised quote for the work?- if so then unless the 'electrician' restores the system to a safe functioning state then withhold the entire sum set aside for 'electrical works'. And contact- your contract is with the builder so get back to the builder (email/text/phone 'your electrician has left the job FUBAR, get it fixed right now'). You have no direct relationship with the 'electrician', the builder has engaged them so it is up to the builder to sort the issues.

Right i'm going to be a while as i'm going to do the lights test mentioned.

I've just realised that photo is an old one, so sorry for that. Although having just gone down there the cables look just as dated & painted so i think it's safe to say no new cables were ran from there.

Just to query your point about the floor - why do you need any sort of permission (if that's what you're saying?). Also there is no insulation, there never was. All that has happened is like for like since the original floor was rotten. So the old wooden joists for example were removed & replaced with the exact same sized wooden joists (well, metric now since the old were imperial) in the exact same locations. Floorboards too.

No we got no itemised bill. Just a total bill which outlined the work to be carried out & then a total at the end of it, so i don't know what was materials, what was labour, what was electrician, what was quoted for the gas man, so on & so forth.

 

[oldbutnotdead]

This is where the legislation gets naughty. The legislation puts the onus on the property owner to ensure that all works conducted on the property are compliant with building regulations, including notification where appropriate. Many property owners (including me til about 10 years ago) didn't realise this and assumed that the 'professionals' that they had engaged would look after stuff like that. They often don't, the legislation is worded like that 'cos the legislators are aware that chasing builders is tricky (since many will pull the phoenix trick every couple of years purely to avoid any sort of liability for past jobs), chasing property owners is easy because they at least have an address.

You don't need permission to renew your floor but you do need to ensure that your renewed floor complies with current building regulations regarding dimensions of structural elements, resistance to moisture penetration and thermal insulation. Covered here http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_AD_L1B_2015.pdf pages 6 (requirement to notify) and page 27 (measures required to comply)

And your billing- as long as cabling, JBs etc are still exposed then it will take a competent person at worst a day to track down and fix the problem. So if your builders' mate doesn't fix it then he's going to have to whistle for £200 or so. If cabling and JBs have been buried already then how long is a piece of string?

 

[oldbutnotdead]

PS I haven't included the bits regarding the dimensions of the joists. Modern timber is not as strong as old timber (have a look at the number of rings in one of your old joists compared to your new ones. The old ones will have about 15 rings per inch, modern you might get 6 or 7- faster growing and weaker) so you may need much bigger timbers to satisfy current building regs. Span tables here http://www.easi-timber.co.uk/downloads/BSW_Easi_Span.pdf