External Air Admittance Valve ?

[JohnW2]

Amazed you had a BCO that was that interested, reassuring in a obviously annoying way for you.

Maybe 'interested', but plain daft in the 'advice' he gave!

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

AFAIK there is no set distinction in the type testing between internal and external AAV with BS EN 12380. It's possible they do use a different stabilizing agent in the external one for it to actually survive outside.

I suppose anything is possible. All I can say (repeat) is that, in their description of the external one, the only difference FloPlast mention is the fly screen. They also present a detailed diagram of the innards, which seemingly applies to both 'internal' and 'external' ones.

.... and yes the vent requirement is mainly a protection against pressure changes and also gas discharge - so you do sometimes need a vent to maintain the correct balance between the interconnected systems of each property.

Indeed, but as I've said a number of times, whilst one might well know what is going on in nearby properties at one point in time, one can presumably never be certain that the situation (in other properties) will never change ion the future.

As an aside, although I don't really recall having seen any in recent times (maybe simply because I'm 'not looking for them'), in the past it used to be common to see tall vent pipes rising from pavements, presumably from sewers/drains. That presumably is the surest way (in relation to 'gas discharge') to deal with the 'venting issue', since it is not dependent on what may be going on within individual properties

Kind Regards, John

 

[denso13]

I think you may be missing the point, and the point of my question. If something is not 'notifiable', then you don't have to 'deal with' anyone at all in relation to it!

Not at all, I think you may be. I had to deal with something, which in effect was not notifiable, following discussions between the homeowner and LABC. It was totally unreasonable and not warranted but the lead BCO, in his wisdom, decided I should be substantially out of pocket. The point being, you can try to work out the proper meaning of words, it can mean diddly squat at the end of the day.

I have also had an instance of being told that something was not "notifiable" when it very plainly should have been. What I think doesn't matter.

 

[JohnW2]

Not at all, I think you may be. I had to deal with something, which in effect was not notifiable, following discussions between the homeowner and LABC. It was totally unreasonable and not warranted ....

Well, that was presumably the fault of the home owner? If it had not been for him/her, then if you did not believe that the work was notifiable, you presumably would never have involved ('talked to') LABC at all, would you?

I've asked what seems to be a simple question, and am surprised that neither you nor anyone else has yet been able to answer it. This is so different from electrical work, for which, since the very first appearance of Part P, the Building Regs have very clearly indicated what work is, and is not, notifiable. As you will be aware, the current situation is that, in England, there is a very short list (just three things) of works which ARE notifiable, whilst in Wales (as in England pre-2013), there is a fairly short list of works which are NOT notifiable. It's all totally clear.

Given that notification, when required, is a "legal requirement", there surely must somewhere be a clear indication of what plumbing/drainage work is, and is not, notifiable? It surely can't be that people are expect to 'guess' (or 'use their own judgement') to decide whether or not there is a legal requirement for them to do something, can it ?

Kind Regards, John

 

[denso13]

It surely can't be that people are expect to 'guess' (or 'use their own judgement') to decide whether or not there is a legal requirement for them to do something, can it ?

Most will pobably visit a site such as https://www.bristol.gov.uk/resident...eck-if-you-need-building-regulations-approval, or phone up and ask.

It is then pot luck as to who you'll get on the other end of the phone, BCO's in the same council can give different advice.

 

[JohnW2]

Most will pobably visit a site such as https://www.bristol.gov.uk/resident...eck-if-you-need-building-regulations-approval, or phone up and ask. .... It is then pot luck as to who you'll get on the other end of the phone, BCO's in the same council can give different advice.

That's surely a ridiculous situation, isn't it?

I'm not talking about 'seeking advice' (which, as you say, will vary, depending on who gives it). Rather, I am asking for a factual statement as to whether or not the law imposes a legal requirement to notify a certain type of work. There is only one answer to that (Yes or No) for a particular type of work - so not subject to individual opinions/views.

As I said, 'the law' (the Building Regs) is very clear about the answer in relation to electrical work. Are you saying that it is nowhere stated what types (if any) of plumbing/drainage work invokes a legal requirement to notify? If the law doesn't indicate that, how on earth can anyone know whether or not they are complying with the law? It would be like putting up a sign which said "Speed Limit", without indicating what the limit was!

Anyone else?

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

As I said, 'the law' (the Building Regs) is very clear about the answer in relation to electrical work. Are you saying that it is nowhere stated what types (if any) of plumbing/drainage work invokes a legal requirement to notify?

I've been trying to look into this, and I'm starting to wonder if the situation is perhaps that NO plumbing/waste work needs to be notified to LABC ?

However, what I have found is an apparent a (WRAS) requirement to notify the local water supply company in relation to certain types of plumbing work. "Watersafe"'s website says (I've removed irrelevant bits) ...

Did you know that by law there are some types of plumbing work which must be notified to your local water company in advance? .......
Local water companies review plans for plumbing and can help ensure the plumbing work complies with the Water Fittings Regulations, which are designed to keep the UK’s drinking water supplies fresh, safe and free from contamination.
The need to notify plumbing work at least 10 days in advance of work starting applies to both domestic properties and non-household buildings such as offices, hospitals, schools, care homes and leisure centres.
WaterSafe’s film clarifies the types of plumbing work that must be notified and gained approval for, before getting started. These are:

• Extending or altering the water system on any non-household building
• A reduced pressure zone (RPZ) valve assembly or similar
• A water treatment unit which produces wastewater
• A bidet with an upward spray or flexible hose
• A bath which holds more than 230 litres of water
• A pump or booster delivering more than 12 litres of water per minute connected directly or indirectly to a supply pipe
• A reverse osmosis unit (for purifying water)
• Any water system outside a building which is either less than 750mm or more than 1,350mm below ground
• A garden watering system (unless operated by hand)
• Installing a swimming pool or pond over 10,000 litres
• Changing the use of a building or installing systems such as rainwater harvesting
• Any drinking water fountain.

If that is 'the lot', it doesn't seem to include much of the plumbing work that one might contemplate doing. ... and there is no explicit mention of 'drainage' work.

Do people do this "notifying the local water authority"?

Kind Regards, John

 

[denso13]

Are you saying that it is nowhere stated what types (if any) of plumbing/drainage work invokes a legal requirement to notify?

Schedule 4 says what doesn't need notifying.

(j)replacing—

(i)a sanitary convenience with one that uses no more water than the one it replaces,

(ii)a washbasin, sink or bidet,

(iii)a fixed bath,

(iv)a shower,

(v)a rainwater gutter, or

(vi)a rainwater downpipe,

where the work does not include any work to underground drainage, and includes no work to the hot or cold water system or above ground drainage, which may prejudice the health or safety of any person on completion of the work;

(k)in relation to an existing cold water supply—

(i)replacing any part,

(ii)adding an output device, or

(iii)adding a control device;

(l)providing a hot water storage system that has a storage vessel with a capacity not exceeding 15 litres, where any electrical work associated with its provision is exempt from the requirement to give a building notice or to deposit full plans by virtue of regulation 9 or 12(6)(b);

 

[JohnW2]

Schedule 4 says what doesn't need notifying.

Indeed, and I've discussed that before - so you've now taken us back to where this discussion started.

However, as I said, that list (of things that do NOT need to be notified) is very limited, essentially only relating to (with caveats) replacing bathroom items, gutters, rainwater downpipes, or parts of a cold water system, or adding an 'output device' or 'control device' to a cold water system.

As I said, that would imply that all other plumbing/drainage work IS notifiable. In particular, it certainly doesn't say that the work on soil pipes I'm contemplating wold not be notifiable - which is why I questioned your repeatedly saying that it did NOT "require LABC involvement".

On the other hand, if one takes that limited list in Schedule 4 literally, it would mean that the great majority of plumbing (even just adding a hot water tap, or absolutely anything to do with waste water/drainage) work IS notifiable, which seems hard to believe, doesn't it?

Kind Regards, John

 

[denso13]

it would mean that the great majority of plumbing (even just adding a hot water tap,

No,

(f)in relation to an existing fixed building service, which is not a fixed internal or external lighting system—

(i)replacing any part which is not a combustion appliance,

(ii)adding an output device, or

(iii)adding a control device,

and for soil pipes,

"where the work does not include any work to underground drainage, and includes no work to the hot or cold water system or above ground drainage, which may prejudice the health or safety of any person on completion of the work"

 

[denso13]

However, as I said, that list (of things that do NOT need to be notified) is very limited, essentially only relating to (with caveats) replacing bathroom items, gutters, rainwater downpipes, or parts of a cold water system, or adding an 'output device' or 'control device' to a cold water system.

And all hot water/heating systems/parts except the boiler. As far as plumbing goes, is there much left out?

 

[JohnW2]

No,
(f)in relation to an existing fixed building service, which is not a fixed internal or external lighting system—
(i)replacing any part which is not a combustion appliance,

Yes, you're right. I had overlooked (f) of Schedule 4. However ....

and for soil pipes,
"where the work does not include any work to underground drainage, and includes no work to the hot or cold water system or above ground drainage, which may prejudice the health or safety of any person on completion of the work"

There I have to disagree (as I have previously). The text you quote is a caveat within (j) of Schedule 4, and therefore surely applies only (as a caveat) to (j)(i) - (j)(vi), none of which mention drainage/disposal of waste/foul water (i.e. they don't include anything about 'drainage').

I therefore don't see that (j) excludes anything to do with waste/soil pipes from the need for notification. Do you disagree?

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

And all hot water/heating systems/parts except the boiler. As far as plumbing goes, is there much left out?

Well, per my recent post, I don't think that it excludes waste/soil pipes etc.

Pending our reaching some agreement about that one, what other work (if anything) other than boilers do you believe does require notification?

Kind Regards, John

 

[denso13]

I therefore don't see that (j) excludes anything to do with waste/soil pipes from the need for notification. Do you disagree?

Yes, I agree, unless it is above ground and in relation to (j)(i) - (j)(vi) and "does not prejudice the health or safety of any person on completion of the work", which I think would cover most work on soil/vents (i.e., not requiring LABC).

You could argue the installation of an AAV only may then be notifiable. I'd like to think though that BCO's would not require an application for minor works.

 

[JohnW2]

Yes, I agree, unless it is above ground and in relation to (j)(i) - (j)(vi) and "does not prejudice the health or safety of any person on completion of the work", which I think would cover most work on soil/vents (i.e., not requiring LABC).

OK - so we are agredd. If, as is the case, all I would be doing is related to the soil/vent pipes, not involving any of the the things in (j)(i)-(j)(vi) (all of which relate to 'replacing' other things), the work would, 'strictly speaking, be notifiable.

Perhaps even more silly, it would seem to be the same (strictly notifiable) if all I was doing related to waste pipes from basins/baths etc.!

You could argue the installation of an AAV only may then be notifiable.

As above, so it seems.

I'd like to think though that BCO's would not require an application for minor works.

Regarding them as human beings, I would also hope that. However, they are not really in a position to determine whether or not there is a legal requirement to notify a particular type of work, even if they agree with us that such a requirement is silly - any such 'legal requirement' (or not) is determined solely by the Building Regs.

Expanding the discussion a bit .... (j) is only about 'replacements' and (f) and (k) include addition of output/control devices (as well as replacements), for hot water/heating etc and cold water systems, respectively.

Taken together, that seems to mean that installation of any 'new' WC, bidet, bath, shower, basin or sink (i.e. not 'replacements) IS theoretically notifiable, as also is indeed, addition (rather than replacement) of anything other than output/control devices to hot water/heating systems ... and also, as above, installation of waste pipes for any 'new' items would also be notifiable. Do you agree with all that?

What about this 'notifying the local water company' business - do people do that and, if so, for which types of work?

Kind Regards, John