Failed Motorised Valve

[somnerd13]

To cut a long story short, the motorised valve on our CH system seems to have failed. Recently we've been having problems with it taking it's time to start, and then sometimes not coming on at all. Now it just won't come on. I did manage to get it to start pumping last night but then before bed I switched the wrong switch off (HW) and can't get the bloody thing to start again.

I have noticed, however, that something is definitly working, as when I put the CH on, I can feel the valve very slightly vibrating. However, the heating doesn't come on. Over the past year or so, it isn't until the valve starts making a ticking sort of sound that the heat would start to circulate - it's no longer doing this ticking sound.

I understand that the lever on the side of the Valve is there to allow water to flow in the case that the valve fails. My problem is, with the valve not making the ticking sound (be it on [vibrating] or off) then the lever only moved half way. However, if the ticking sound is being made I can move the lever freely. I have tried forcing the lever but I don't want to try to hard in case I damage anything - is it meant to be this stiff? Am I looking at another problem here?

I don't really want to bother replacing the valve/head because we're moving in a few weeks time, but it's a little cold today so some warmth would be nice. If the only option is replacement then I guess we'll have to live with it being cold for the next couple of days.

I have now managed to get it to work with a little 'encouragement' and I have left it switched on so that we can get heating in the morning should we need it. This should be ok as for some reason turning on the CH from the timer doesn't seem to do anything but power the valve - to get hot water in the radiators the HW needs to be switched on too. I am guessing that this particular problem is down to incorrect wiring - maybe the valve isn't firing up the boiler? Either way, whilst it means that I can keep the valve on permanently, it does mean that when the HW comes on in the morning and again in the evening the heaters will warm up as well, unless I turn the CH off, and then I won't be able to get it back on again. :S

So my original question about the lever on the valve still stands.

 

[Softus]

I understand that the lever on the side of the Valve is there to allow water to flow in the case that the valve fails.

That isn't the only use, but you can use it for that.

I have tried forcing the lever but I don't want to try to hard in case I damage anything - is it meant to be this stiff?

If the valve isn't being powered, or if the motor has failed, then it will feel quite stiff - you'd be pushing the lever against a strong spring.

I don't really want to bother replacing the valve/head because we're moving in a few weeks time

Eh? Are you thinking of leaving it in a faulty state? If so you've come to the wrong place for advice - you want the Sheisters forum.

I have now managed to get it to work with a little 'encouragement' and I have left it switched on so that we can get heating in the morning should we need it. This should be ok as for some reason turning on the CH from the timer doesn't seem to do anything but power the valve - to get hot water in the radiators the HW needs to be switched on too. I am guessing that this particular problem is down to incorrect wiring - maybe the valve isn't firing up the boiler?

That would correct wiring then.

If the valve is powered open, manually opening it will allow water to flow, but it won't operate the microswitch that powers the boiler and the pump. However, if you switch the hot water mode on, the boiler will fire and the pump will pump, and some of the heated water will reach the radiators.

Either way, whilst it means that I can keep the valve on permanently, it does mean that when the HW comes on in the morning and again in the evening the heaters will warm up as well, unless I turn the CH off, and then I won't be able to get it back on again.

You'll be able to get it back on again merely by manually opening the valve. And you can continue doing that until you move out and the innocent people you've conned into believing that you're leaving everything in working order move in.

 

[somnerd13]

Eh? Are you thinking of leaving it in a faulty state? If so you've come to the wrong place for advice - you want the Sheisters forum.

House is most probably going to developers, and we're hardly going to not tell them about this.

That would correct wiring then.

I'm sorry I'm not sure that I understand - is it correct if the CH starts the motorised valve and fires the boiler, or if it doesn't fire the boiler?

If the valve is powered open, manually opening it will allow water to flow, but it won't operate the microswitch that powers the boiler and the pump. However, if you switch the hot water mode on, the boiler will fire and the pump will pump, and some of the heated water will reach the radiators.

Whether the valve is powered or powered and open the boiler does not fire. Turning the HW will allow the radiators to heat up and they heat up just as you would expect them to if the system worked. All radiators heat up, and at the correct temperature.
As I said, I can't manually open it because the lever won't go that far unless it is already open. When it's open and I switched it off the level goes back to it's original position.
Again, this is why I think there is faulty wiring, as the valve can certainly be powered and open but the boiler doesn't fire.

You'll be able to get it back on again merely by manually opening the valve. And you can continue doing that until you move out and the innocent people you've conned into believing that you're leaving everything in working order move in.

As before, I can't manually open it as it feels like something is going to break if I put more pressure on it. :S Replacement isn't really an option at the moment, it's a house inherited by two young girls from their late father and £50 for a new valve/head is the last thing on their mind at the moment considering probate and what not.

Thankyou for your quick reply.

 

[Softus]

House is most probably going to developers, and we're hardly going to not tell them about this.

I got lost in the double negative, but let's not go there anyway.

That would be correct wiring then.

I'm sorry I'm not sure that I understand - is it correct if the CH starts the motorised valve and fires the boiler, or if it doesn't fire the boiler?

Correct if it fires the boiler, but the valve has to fully open for that to happen.

Whether the valve is powered or powered and open the boiler does not fire.

I've tried reading this a couple of times, but can't glean what you meant - could you restate?

Turning the HW will allow the radiators to heat up and they heat up just as you would expect them to if the system worked. All radiators heat up, and at the correct temperature.

This, I suspect, is because the CH valve is at least partly open. Either because it's jammed or because you've manually [partly] open it.

As I said, I can't manually open it because the lever won't go that far unless it is already open. When it's open and I switched it off the level goes back to it's original position.

It sounds like the mechanism is jamming - this would also account for the ticking that you mentioned in your original post.

Again, this is why I think there is faulty wiring, as the valve can certainly be powered and open but the boiler doesn't fire.

It's a very rare thing for wiring to become faulty - it's more more common that the motor fails, or the mechanism jams, or the valve seat becomes clogged with corrosion deposits.

As before, I can't manually open it as it feels like something is going to break if I put more pressure on it.

Yep - another indication of a faulty mechanism jamming up.

Replacement isn't really an option at the moment, it's a house inherited by two young girls from their late father and £50 for a new valve/head is the last thing on their mind at the moment considering probate and what not.

Fair enough.

 

[somnerd13]

I've tried reading this a couple of times, but can't glean what you meant - could you restate?

Sorry, I can see how that is confusing!

If the CH is switched on, but the valve doesn't seem to be on (indications: no ticking noise, lever wont move all the way) - Boiler does not fire.

If the CH is switched on, and the valve is on (indications: lever moves freely, no ticking noise however) - Boiler does not fire, radiators do not get hot.

If the CH and HW are switched on, and the valve is on (indications: lever moves freely, ticking noise) - Boiler fires, radiators get hot

This, I suspect, is because the CH valve is at least partly open. Either because it's jammed or because you've manually [partly] open it.

It's not that I have manually opened it - I have turned the CH on so that has opened it - my point again is that the HW needs to be on for the CH to work, I guess I should have mentioned that with the HW on and CH off then the raditors do not get warm! So not a stuck valve.

It sounds like the mechanism is jamming - this would also account for the ticking that you mentioned in your original post.

I think you're right here - the ticking noise (which is constant and about 2/3 a second) sounds an awful lot like the noise the lever makes when I fiddle about with it, although obviously it's not a constant sound.

It's a very rare thing for wiring to become faulty - it's more more common that the motor fails, or the mechanism jams, or the valve seat becomes clogged with corrosion deposits.

Yeh I don't think it is faulty wiring, just incorrect wiring. I asked my gf (who's house it is) and she says that over the last 10 years they have had to have HW and CH on for radiators to heat up.

Fair enough.

I hope I didn't sound like I was snapping at you, I just have to constantly explain this all the time as it's obviously quite an unusual situation!

 

[Softus]

If the CH is switched on, but the valve doesn't seem to be on (indications: no ticking noise, lever wont move all the way) - Boiler does not fire.

If the CH is switched on, and the valve is on (indications: lever moves freely, no ticking noise however) - Boiler does not fire, radiators do not get hot.

If the CH and HW are switched on, and the valve is on (indications: lever moves freely, ticking noise) - Boiler fires, radiators get hot

This, I suspect, is because the CH valve is at least partly open. Either because it's jammed or because you've manually [partly] opened it.

It's not that I have manually opened it - I have turned the CH on so that has opened it - my point again is that the HW needs to be on for the CH to work, I guess I should have mentioned that with the HW on and CH off then the raditors do not get warm! So not a stuck valve.

OK. So if it's partly open, and not fully open, then it's one of the following:

1. Mechanism jamming;
2. Debris inside the valve.

It's a very rare thing for wiring to become faulty - it's more more common that the motor fails, or the mechanism jams, or the valve seat becomes clogged with corrosion deposits.

Yeh I don't think it is faulty wiring, just incorrect wiring. I asked my gf (who's house it is) and she says that over the last 10 years they have had to have HW and CH on for radiators to heat up.

OK, so the possibilities here are:

1. Incorrect wiring, and has been so for a long time;
2. Mechanism jamming, and has been so for a long time;
3. Faulty microswitch, and has been so for a long time.

Fair enough.

I hope I didn't sound like I was snapping at you, I just have to constantly explain this all the time as it's obviously quite an unusual situation!

Not at all - I genuinely accept that it is however you say it is. I apologise if I misjudged you - I may have interpreted your early words incorrectly. No offence taken at this end.

How's about one more post each and then I'm off to sleepy-bo-bo-land...

 

[somnerd13]

Seeing as the hot weather seems to now be here and we're only having a cold day here and there we're not too worried about sorting it - if it was the middle of January I'd have it done in a flash!

Fixing the wiring is too big a job for me to undertake just to have the heating working just in case it gets cold again.

Being jammed I am guessing means that it needs replacing - again it's not really worth it.

What can be done about a faulty microswitch?

Whatever the problem is it has been so for a long time. A few weeks ago I did meet the guy who originally plumbed the system. He came around as the system is a closed system but the pressure was constantly rising. I could tell that the filling loop valve had failed because I could hear water flowing and turning it fully into the off position allowed more water in than it did in a not-so-off position. However, the guy simply put it in the off position and wouldn't listen to a word I said when I tried to tell him that if he listened you could hear it still filling! Did his macho plumber thing that he knows better. Sounded like a bit of a cowboy to me. The system went from 1 bar to 3 bar within an hour.

After turning the tap to the not-so-off position the system took about 6 hours to go from 1 bar to 3 bar so for the next few days I was emptying a few buckets worth of water out of the system a day (it's a large house, theres about 18 radiators on the system) as I was waiting for the weekend to come so I can place a new filling loop and taps on. However, magically on the Friday the thing stopped filling and hasn't done so since!

 

[Softus]

Being jammed I am guessing means that it needs replacing...

Yes - depending on the make/age it might be just a replacement powerhead that's needed, but it might be the whole valve as one unit.

What can be done about a faulty microswitch?

Replace powerhead or entire valve.

I good you bidnight.

 

[somnerd13]

Thanks for you help, 'night.

 

[Paul Barker]

I have managed to change the microswitch using generic one, but it involves cutting back the tags slodering and suchlike but the body of the thing is exactly the same as the honeywell one. in my view new screws should come with the motor as they can easily fall into the bowells of the airing cupboard.

Slightly off topic, but this experience made me see red. At a scrap metal merchants weighing my copper, I saw some brand new MPV bodies, I said shame the heads weren't on these, oh we put them in the wheelie bin (which of course had been emptied). I took two bodies but couldn't see much point.

I am really more mad at the waste of some employee who has weighed in such an expensive part for about a £1 a piece just to get some cash. Not only is he a thief of the worst kind but he isn't environmentally aware either, he should have put them on eBay top get maximum return and they would have stayed in the world as what they were made so that no more would have to be produced. All the time we have idiots with this mentality we are wasting our time worrying about a little pilot flame's effect on the environment..

Secondly before the mass recycling fever took hold of the country if my kids needed a new bike I took them with me to the dump we picked one out the guy took a fiver, the kids were delighted and learned how to be careful with money as I had to all my life. Now we have recycling I have to buy a new bike for them as the ones taken to the dump are inaccessible to the local community to which they ought to be recycled as they used to.

Someone should invent a dump exchange franchise where all waste products are locally recycled before being sent to whatever the councils do with it now, which would give more chance of the items being used for their original intended purpose and so prevent the manufacture of another one.

That would best serve the environment, but not the quangos the control freaks or big industry.

Anyhow send me the valve and I'll recondition it for you to save the planet.

 

[ChrisR]

What can be done about a faulty microswitch?

You can mend them - - a slight tweak and it uses a different part of the contact and it'll go for the remaining life of the boiler.

Bikes and the like seem to be perks for the oiks on the council tip. The B*****rs won't help you until they see a bit of copper then you're in their way while they try to get to it. I'd lifted a cast iron bath in 3 bits out of the car and over the wall to the heap while they watched, but when the old Profile was revealed with a stub of copper they were all over me. So I threw it over their heads and they went all quiet.

There used to be a bicycle workshop attached to tthe local NHS psychie ward and conselling dept - fantastic.

The world - oh that. Why should care I've nearly finished with it.

 

[sloss]

The boiler fires when the HC is on.

The boiler won't fire when the CH is on.

Common to that scenarion is the need for a micro switch to function therefore I suggest that the Micro switch in the CH Zone valve head is goosed.

The ticking noise is prolly the teeth of the zone valve synchro motor skipping on the valve actuator teeth.