Fair tax: Maybe rich people should pay it too."

[SirGalahad]

Point proven.

Let me put it in simple terms so a dunce like you can understand.

Your argument is that having low corporate taxes will encourage economic activity - what it does is displace activity by extracting it from the areas where the income is earned.

So you earn your money in country A but declare profits in country B.

Thats all it will do.

Dumb ****.

 

[Justin Passing]

Pull in a thousand quid, pay tax on it, the same rules as the next man.

That's fair

Not special rules which by amazing chance are designed to give the rich an easy ride.

You didn't answer about the income from premium bonds; why is that alllowed to be diferent, if you think all income is equal.

Or the income to the venture capitalist, who might lose the lot?
If someone has earned enough to make those investments, they've already paid tax on the money once.

Simpleton piety.

---

Quick look - France - you pay tax on only 12% of the gain if held over 2 years, then you pay tax on the 12% = tiny.
Germany - complicated and manipulable

Generally:

That map shows top rates. I guess if you aren't into the Top Rate band, you don't really count. BUt if you're properly rich then it's worth shifting assets to avoid highest taxation.

Remember these things are there to be manipulated.
EG if you can get dividends as extra shares, it becomes a capital gain when you sell. Capital gains can be offset, etc. Good in France - almost not taxed at all.

 

[JohnD]

Or the income to the venture capitalist, who might lose the lot?

Do you think that applies to the city spivs I mentioned?

 

[JohnD]

If country A has a large, prosperous population

And a company, let's call is Amabucks, makes ten billion a year sales in Country A

Country A has the right to say "If you want to operate in our country, you have to operate by our rules."

Now let's suppose that Country A is a leading member of the world's largest and most prosperous single market

And there are 27 countries who all think that taxes should be paid, even by billionaires and multinationals. And the union decides not to let companies play off each country against another, to win the lowest bid.

Is Amabucks going to shut up shop?

Set up a large collective of countries that says the super rich don't get an easy ride here. We could call it the European Unity or some such.

Should billionaires and multinationals pay fair tax?

Just like the rest of us common little people? Or should the tax laws be constructed so they can hide it in tax havens? They're not contributing to our public services. If a company that doesn't pay tax in, say, the UK, has a warehouse fire, should they expect our taxpayer-funded fire service...

www.diynot.com

Well bless my soul, who could have seen that coming?

EU adopts global minimum 15% tax on big business

The landmark agreement aims to stop governments racing to cut taxes in a bid to attract business.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Justin Passing]

Do you think that applies to the city spivs I mentioned?

Yes, sometimes, you just don't hear about it.

You're conflating several different things. According to the map on #62 the dividend rant was overall wrong, so you slide sideways to something else.
Actions of an analyst, or of a ranter?

 

[JohnD]

Show me where I started a thread about dividend tax rates.

Easy enough, but it's not this one.

I don't usually bother looking at your posts, but I gather you are trying to claim that it is fair for dividend income to be taxed more leniently than wages. I don't see you have produced any evidence. Perhaps it is in one of your many ignored posts.

I see you are sliding sideways away from so-called carried interest.

Bit of a ranter, are you?

" UK entrepreneur and Labour party donor Dale Vince is planning to challenge the country’s tax authority over the way it taxes private equity profits.

The planned legal action is the latest twist in a long-running debate over the tax treatment of so-called carried interest, the share of profit buyout fund managers typically receive from asset sales. Such payments are currently taxed as capital gains, rather than at the higher rate of ordinary income.

The payments dealmakers can individually earn from successful deals can run into the tens of millions. In the tax year 2020-21, a group of just 255 of the UK’s top private equity executives earned £2.7bn in carried interest."

FT.com

 

[Justin Passing]

You make the same shallow rants about CGT as you do about dividends for the same non-reasons.
Yes they're both taxed separately from other income, for sound reasons.
You say is unfair but don't address the reasons we all know
You do it time and time and time again. It's called trolling.

All we've had from you is bluster puff and nonsense as you go ranting. I don't need to prove anything, just calling you out.
I have already provided reason; you have answered absolutely nothing, as usual.
We just get more simpleton piety.

If you look at the history of both dividend and CG tax, you will see that in the ten years of the last labour govt, they did not do what you seem to think is right.
That's because they weren't dumbf___ tossers.

 

[JohnD]

You say is unfair but don't address the reasons we all know

You're talking about the fact that the rich and powerful have more influence and the rules are shaped to favour them.

You don't like me objecting to that.

 

[motorbiking]

Let me put it in simple terms so a dunce like you can understand.

Your argument is that having low corporate taxes will encourage economic activity - what it does is displace activity by extracting it from the areas where the income is earned.

So you earn your money in country A but declare profits in country B.

Thats all it will do.

Dumb ****.

Why do you get so upset at other people's opinion? chill dude, you can make your point without calling everyone names.

Lets go back to you first example.

County A has high unemployment and low productivity. Country B, C & D have lower unemployment and higher productivity. Country A wants a better life for its citizens. It works out that it needs to attract better employers who bring skilled jobs and training. It decides to tax the employee wages to subsidise the employer to attract the employer.

Many companies like the idea and move their European HQ to country A from Country B, C & D. They like it so much that they also route their declaration of sales from B,C & D to A. They can do this because they are all part of a trade border free club, that says we don't care where you pay sales tax, as long as you pay sales tax.

Country A does very well. Its citizens stop growing potatoes for minimum wage and start working for Apple earning 100k+ ..

and Microsoft, Dell, Oracle, Facebook, Sandisk, Kingston, VMware, Intel, HP, Netgear, SAP, IBM.

Country F, likes the idea, so it too declares no tax on IP, to attract lawyers and royalties to scam other countries revenues, Starbucks likes the idea. Country G decides to follow with no tax on corporate purchasing. Vodafone likes this idea. Country H follows A, F and G to make itself a central hub. In the end business and employment thrive, but the big club doesn't like it because it's basically funded by country B, C & D. Though they like to ignore country B even though it pays a large chunk to run the club. The club tries to stop the game. Everybody who benefits tells them they are wrong and tries to bribe the club. The club likes bribes so it does nothing. Country B gets fed up funding the club that does nothing but burn money and decided to leave.

the end.

 

[JohnD]

Country U, however, gives multinationals and billionaires an easy ride, and when the club announces that its members will tighten up, it resigns from the club, and freezes tax allowances and public services for the common people instead.

Not the end.

 

[carmanmemoranda]

Why do you get so upset at other people's opinion? chill dude, you can make your point without calling everyone names.

Lets go back to you first example.

County A has high unemployment and low productivity. Country B, C & D have lower unemployment and higher productivity. Country A wants a better life for its citizens. It works out that it needs to attract better employers who bring skilled jobs and training. It decides to tax the employee wages to subsidise the employer to attract the employer.

Many companies like the idea and move their European HQ to country A from Country B, C & D. They like it so much that they also route their declaration of sales from B,C & D to A. They can do this because they are all part of a trade border free club, that says we don't care where you pay sales tax, as long as you pay sales tax.

Country A does very well. Its citizens stop growing potatoes for minimum wage and start working for Apple earning 100k+ ..

and Microsoft, Dell, Oracle, Facebook, Sandisk, Kingston, VMware, Intel, HP, Netgear, SAP, IBM.

Country F, likes the idea, so it too declares no tax on IP, to attract lawyers and royalties to scam other countries revenues, Starbucks likes the idea. Country G decides to follow with no tax on corporate purchasing. Vodafone likes this idea. Country H follows A, F and G to make itself a central hub. In the end business and employment thrive, but the big club doesn't like it because it's basically funded by country B, C & D. Though they like to ignore country B even though it pays a large chunk to run the club. The club tries to stop the game. Everybody who benefits tells them they are wrong and tries to bribe the club. The club likes bribes so it does nothing. Country B gets fed up funding the club that does nothing but burn money and decided to leave.

the end.

Doesn't sound like the UK even though we have all those companies here.

Just the lower earning taxpayers subsidising them.

If those big companies can make a good profit even after taxation, they won't run away. But if they did, others would jump in their place

 

[SirGalahad]

Why do you get so upset at other people's opinion? chill dude, you can make your point without calling everyone names.

Lets go back to you first example.

County A has high unemployment and low productivity. Country B, C & D have lower unemployment and higher productivity. Country A wants a better life for its citizens. It works out that it needs to attract better employers who bring skilled jobs and training. It decides to tax the employee wages to subsidise the employer to attract the employer.

Many companies like the idea and move their European HQ to country A from Country B, C & D. They like it so much that they also route their declaration of sales from B,C & D to A. They can do this because they are all part of a trade border free club, that says we don't care where you pay sales tax, as long as you pay sales tax.

Country A does very well. Its citizens stop growing potatoes for minimum wage and start working for Apple earning 100k+ ..

and Microsoft, Dell, Oracle, Facebook, Sandisk, Kingston, VMware, Intel, HP, Netgear, SAP, IBM.

Country F, likes the idea, so it too declares no tax on IP, to attract lawyers and royalties to scam other countries revenues, Starbucks likes the idea. Country G decides to follow with no tax on corporate purchasing. Vodafone likes this idea. Country H follows A, F and G to make itself a central hub. In the end business and employment thrive, but the big club doesn't like it because it's basically funded by country B, C & D. Though they like to ignore country B even though it pays a large chunk to run the club. The club tries to stop the game. Everybody who benefits tells them they are wrong and tries to bribe the club. The club likes bribes so it does nothing. Country B gets fed up funding the club that does nothing but burn money and decided to leave.

the end.

I am tired of the Duning Kruger effect where idiots on here think the economy operates like their local corner shop.

Tell me in this poor example what are country A factors of production? What are country B,C,D factors of production - do they have absolute or a comparative advantage in these factors of production?

All tax havens do is displace where taxes are paid not where activity takes place.

Its called transfer pricing the way they shift declaring profits to lower taxed countries - they earn the money elsewhere.

So take your stupid example if you never declare profits in a country which you derive your revenue - what happens to that countries tax base?

The only reason tax havens exists because the rich and powerful have influence over the politicians.

Tell me - why should tax havens exist in the first place?

 

[SirGalahad]

Doesn't sound like the UK even though we have all those companies here.

Just the lower earning taxpayers subsidising them.

If those big companies can make a good profit even after taxation, they won't run away. But if they did, others would jump in their place

It is why tax falls on the employee and employer at a higher rate than we tax capital. Banks and investment companies who have smaller headcount and can shift their business around benefit the most of having tax havens - look at the biggest contributors to Brexit referendum and the Tory party.

 

[SirGalahad]

So put it into terms an idiot like mottie can understand.

Say Mottie has a garage in essex where the rate of tax is say 30% and the rate of tax in Brexitcentral Boston is 0%, Mottie will provide his services in Essex but bill them through his company in Boston.

At the end of the year he declares no profits in Essex and all of his profits in Boston. Now Essex has a fall in tax incomes and so cuts services. Boston as it charges 0% tax rate has no taxes paid to them.

 

[JohnD]

So put it into terms an idiot like mottie can understand.

Say Mottie has a garage in essex where the rate of tax is say 30% and the rate of tax in Brexitcentral Boston is 0%, Mottie will provide his services in Essex but bill them through his company in Boston.

At the end of the year he declares no profits in Essex and all of his profits in Boston. Now Essex has a fall in tax incomes and so cuts services. Boston as it charges 0% tax rate has no taxes paid to them.

Subsequently, public services in Hornchurch are cut, and Council tax is increased. Mottie grumbles abbout potholes, verges and street lighting. His granny has her social services helper hours cut. He blames anyone that is not in power