Fair tax: Maybe rich people should pay it too."

[Brigadier]

Lets get the tax system sorted first

it'll never be "sorted"; the financial landscape is constantly changing.
Like @motorbiking posted, incremental changes (in a direction beneficial to employees, employers, investors, and the country as a whole, ideally).

workers who create the wealth for the investors

Investors create the opportunities, is just as valid a point.

fairer

Subjective and, depending on your point of view, possibly even incorrect.


Not looking to debate the finer details with anyone, just pointing out things that even the layperson (me) can see.

 

[carmanmemoranda]

it'll never be "sorted"; the financial landscape is constantly changing.
Like @motorbiking posted, incremental changes (in a direction beneficial to employees, employers, investors, and the country as a whole, ideally).




Investors create the opportunities, is just as valid a point.



Subjective and, depending on your point of view, possibly even incorrect.


Not looking to debate the finer details with anyone, just pointing out things that even the layperson (me) can see.

And the point is, everybody sees it differently.

I think most people can see the tax system is unfair in lots of ways as it currently is. I wouldn't want it skewed more in the favour of the rich. Others do.

 

[Justin Passing]

I have an idea. Why not get poor people to write the tax laws & legislation?

Dumb idea.
There would be a strong correlation between being poor and low cognitive abilities.
So the poor would screw society up in problems they can't understand. Breakdown.
So those with more abilities get used, to organise things. While they're at it they make things better for themselves.
Morality gets in the way, so the poor don't starve completely, and they get used to maintain the system by those who are more able.
Simples.

If you don't like it, go try living on a desert island. You'd die of thirst in a week.

If the poor want to change the morality, they have to get high up enough, they can't do that from the bottom, unless they have been allowed too much power by the more able. If the poor manage that, then the result is as above - breakdown.
An error going that way is to allow unskilled people of low ability to do things like drive trains, where they can hold the rest o the people to ransom.

So those with the abilities have to give up enough power to make the poor think they are being looked after. Tricky balance, nobody's happy, and the system is riddled with bull$hít. That's about where we are.

OK tongue in cheek, but not much.

 

[JohnD]

How can you argue we have a tax system "designed to treat the rich more generously than ordinary working people." When these people pay the vast majority of all taxes and these rules are open to all.

Your assertion is so absurd that I don't think you really believe it yourself.

If an ordinary working man pays a higher percentage of tax and NI on his earnings, than the wealthy man pays on his dividends and capital gains, then the tax system is designed to treat the rich more generously than ordinary working people.

 

[diy_fun_uk]

Dumb idea.
There would be a strong correlation between being poor and low cognitive abilities.
So the poor would screw society up in problems they can't understand. Breakdown.
So those with more abilities get used, to organise things. While they're at it they make things better for themselves.
Morality gets in the way, so the poor don't starve completely, and they get used to maintain the system by those who are more able.
Simples.

If you don't like it, go try living on a desert island. You'd die of thirst in a week.

If the poor want to change the morality, they have to get high up enough, they can't do that from the bottom, unless they have been allowed too much power by the more able. If the poor manage that, then the result is as above - breakdown.
An error going that way is to allow unskilled people of low ability to do things like drive trains, where they can hold the rest o the people to ransom.

So those with the abilities have to give up enough power to make the poor think they are being looked after. Tricky balance, nobody's happy, and the system is riddled with bull$hít. That's about where we are.

OK tongue in cheek, but not much.

I suppose this links with the discussion around the redistribution of wealth. I sometimes hear political parties (not the Tories ) refer to it i.e. there needs to be greater redistribution. However you use the phrase 'tricky balance' in your post and I suppose the same holds true here. In other words exactly how should wealth be redistributed in a way that would make everyone happy with the solution implemented.

I think that's why any discussions around the money side of welfare and society tend to get quite heated. Hence why the recent article about the £1600 per month universal income proved quite contentious. Using a broad brush argument, those without assert 'we should have more' and those with assert 'we've worked for it, why should we give even more.' If you're in either camp it's easy to see why you'd present such an argument.

 

[diy_fun_uk]

Your assertion is so absurd that I don't think you really believe it yourself.

If an ordinary working man pays a higher percentage of tax and NI on his earnings, than the wealthy man pays on his dividends and capital gains, then the tax system is designed to treat the rich more generously than ordinary working people.

Do you think it's only wealthy people that have to pay things like capital gains? How do you define a 'wealthy' person? To use an example off the government website, I personally think it stinks that if someone buys a painting for £5k and later sells it for £25k, the government say 'thank you very much, we'll take x% from your £20k gain in tax. Someone maybe scrimps and scrapes for years to afford a property. Through no fault of their own, it appreciates in value over the coming years. They sell it, they're taxed on the capital gain. They die, it's taxed via inheritance tax.

I suppose it depends how you view the whole thing i.e. society, money and who has what. I've far from being wealthy (in the context I'd consider someone wealthy that is) however neither do I agree with taxing genuinely wealthy people to the hilt and then some.

 

[JohnD]

Do you think it's only wealthy people that have to pay things like capital gains?

Do you think that poor people commonly receive enough capital gains and dividend income to pay tax on them?

If you do you must have some kind of defect.

 

[diy_fun_uk]

And, although a contentious thing to say, at least some of the folk who moan about not having enough, tax the rich more etc, are people who are too lazy to get off their backsides in an attempt to improve their own situation. Oh but we can't say that these days can we, the narrative that's pushed is no one wants to not work and everyone would much rather be working and contributing.

Rubbish.

 

[diy_fun_uk]

Do you think that poor people commonly receive enough capital gains and dividend income to pay tax on them?

Nice attempt at a pivot, have you thought about becoming a politician?

 

[JohnD]

neither do I agree with taxing genuinely wealthy people to the hilt and then some.

I have not suggested that.

I have however suggested that they should not be treated more generously than poor people.

Which they are.

 

[JohnD]

Do you think it's only wealthy people that have to pay things like capital gains?

Who do YOU think it is?

 

[JohnD]

And, although a contentious thing to say, at least some of the folk who moan about not having enough, tax the rich more etc, are people who are too lazy to get off their backsides in an attempt to improve their own situation.

That, of course, is irrelevant to the suggestion that rich people should not be treated more generously that ordinary people.

Which they are.

 

[Mottie]

Someone maybe scrimps and scrapes for years to afford a property. Through no fault of their own, it appreciates in value over the coming years. They sell it, they're taxed on the capital gain.

Not if it’s their main house they don’t.

 

[diy_fun_uk]

Who do YOU think it is?

Certainly not everyone that might find themselves having to pay capital gains.

 

[diy_fun_uk]

Not if it’s their main house they don’t.

True, but not to worry, if over the threshold inheritance tax will ensure the government takes a slice.