Falling over

[Roger928]

Can a post mortem examination reveal if the person was concussed and knocked out after slipping and falling over and then falling into a few feet of water?


Have many people died in a bath this way where they fall into the bath hitting their head on the way down prior to being submerged in the water?
Is it a certainty that the cause of death will be recorded as drowning?

 

[conny]

An autopsy would find water in the lungs/airways if a person was still breathing when they were submerged in water. Once you die there is an area in your epiglottis, I think, which automatically closes and prevents anything going further down your throat. There are many signs to indicate what caused a persons death but only a professional would be able to determine the exact cause.

 

[Brigadier]

Is this sleuthing, curiosity, or planning?

 

[Bodgeitandleggit]

Can a post mortem examination reveal if the person was concussed and knocked out after slipping and falling over and then falling into a few feet of water?


Have many people died in a bath this way where they fall into the bath hitting their head on the way down prior to being submerged in the water?
Is it a certainty that the cause of death will be recorded as drowning?

have you insured them!!

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

An autopsy would find water in the lungs/airways if a person was still breathing when they were submerged in water. Once you die there is an area in your epiglottis, I think, which automatically closes and prevents anything going further down your throat. There are many signs to indicate what caused a persons death but only a professional would be able to determine the exact cause.

I think the closing of the epiglottis is an automatic response while you are conscious. It can prevent someone from breathing, during choking or the danger of water in the lungs. On the rare occasion, it is the closing of the epiglottis that causes suffocation, after the danger of water or other stuff into the lungs has passed, a laryngospasm, I think. It can also be a cause of sleep apnea.

Incidentally, if you are suffering from suffocation because your epiglottis has closed, once you fall unconscious your epiglottis will probably reopen, although on occasion (e.g. laryngospasm) it might need intervention from another, e.g. sharp slap on the back.

Probably not helpful for roger in his skulduggery.

 

[^woody^]

From my cardiovascular module of the MSc in Oddjobing, iirc the heart needs to be beating to cause bruising.

 

[Doggit]

I suspect you should have hunted for a nursing site to ask that question Roger, but as woody says, if the hearts beating, bruising will occur whilst the person is drowning, so yes, they will "reasonably" assume that the person fell and hit their head before drowning, but they may not be able to determine whether the person was concussed or knocked out; but that would be a reasonable assumption to make.

So, apart from the jokes, do we assume that the has happened to someone close to you.

 

[gasbanni]

Sometimes I fall over ....only seems to happen with stella nothing else has the same effect on my balance !

 

[gasbanni]

I suspect you should have hunted for a nursing site to ask that question Roger, but as woody says, if the hearts beating, bruising will occur whilst the person is drowning, so yes, they will "reasonably" assume that the person fell and hit their head before drowning, but they may not be able to determine whether the person was concussed or knocked out; but that would be a reasonable assumption to make.

So, apart from the jokes, do we assume that the has happened to someone close to you.

Errr..... Doggit people search onine to find out information on errrrr things they shouldn't....... for deeds that errr. ...... shouldn't occur !

 

[Judy in the sky]

An unconscious person still breathes. If they are unconscious when they fall into water, the automatic reflex is for the epiglottis to close. and for the larynx to go into spasm (larygospasm) where the vocal cords close If they remain in the water the (almost automatic) urge to breathe increases with the amount of CO in the persons blood stream and the urge to breathe cannot eventually be avoided, causing aspiration of water into the lungs. Sometimes laryngospasm remains meaning no water enters the lungs (a so called dry drowning) in which case the usual cause of death would be cardiac arrest.

 

[motorbiking]

I can't answer the specific question, but from my first on scene training and sea survival course..
When I attended a fatally injured motorcyclist, who had serious leg and head injuries, I couldn't at the time work out why there wasn't much blood. I was later helped by a doctor who arrived on scene and we discussed it at the side of the road (as you do), it was this, that led him to conclude that he was beyond help. i.e. even though I'd managed to get a pulse for a moment, his heart had been stopped for a while probably at impact.

Second bit.
If you fall in to cold water, even as a fit person, you have a very high chance of having a heart attack. I'm not sure of the stats, but I was told that half of people pulled out of cold water upright have some sort of cardiac problem within an hour or so. Its why you must always land an Man over board, horizontal, if you can. Also most people are unable to do anything in the first minute of falling in to cold water as you go in to a kind of shock spasm.

So my guess is that a living person knocked in to the water would have Adrenalin etc in the blood as a result of the water shock and that if they were still alive from the head injury, there would be more bleeding internally and at the impact. I'd guess a scan might also show if the impact had been catastrophic (e.g. basal fracture).

 

[bernardgreen]

a living person knocked in to the water would have Adrenalin etc in the blood as a result of the water shock

When the cold water hits the skin the capilleries close down very rapidly and blood supply to the skin is stopped forcing the blood to be diverted to the vital organs. This creates a sudden increase in load on the heart and this is the reason the heart may stop or go into fibrillation

 

[Roger928]

So, apart from the jokes, do we assume that the has happened to someone close to you

A neighbour I've known well.
The water tank was outside. The death has been deemed suicide.
But for many who knew him its difficult to accept.
And thanks for all the replies.

 

[Doggit]

I have to agree with you; most cases of drowning after a fall, relate to a bath, or a paddling pool type scenario. To collapse and hit your head and then drown, is a bit far fetched if we assume that most people would fall and hit their head n the side of the water tank, and then fall outside of it, not in it.

More details needed.

 

[motorbiking]

Odd to conclude suicide rather than accidental death?