Fire doors again

[Bluebirdnick]

Hi all

We are about to have the builders in to mess about with the downstairs layout of the house which involves replacing all of the doors and the door stops.

We will likely do the loft in the next few years so even though the drawings dont show it, the builder suggests we fit fire doors now so we don't have to mess about with the stops if we do decide to do the loft. This seems like a good idea, but the cost is not inconsiderable. Do we actually have to have a door to all rooms? E.g. we've never closed the kitchen door and I can't see that we ever would - am I obliged to spend £000s on a fire door if my preference is simply to have no door at all? And is there anything stopping me fitting any old fire door to pass building control, and then removing it later? Thanks

 

[DevilDamo]

All doors that enclose the stair would need to be fire doors, min. E20 (FD20S) standard. As FD20’s are becoming more difficult to source, FD30’s end up being installed.

 

[^woody^]

There's big changes coming to the building regulations and fire safety standards requirements from insurers, so you don't know what will or won't be required in a few years.

But hypothetically, there is nothing to stop you fitting a fire door just to trick the building inspector and then remove it when he's gone. Some may say that would be the action of a fool, but insurers would definitely say that your insurance is invalid and if someone died as a result of it I'm sure the person who removed it would say "why the **** did I do that?".

 

[Bluebirdnick]

Thanks both. Yes, I was going to edit the original post to say "is there anything (other than common sense) stopping me fitting any old fire door...". But honestly- that door never gets closed. Never. And a fire door that is left open is surely useless anyway. We'd actually quite like to widen the opening, remove the kitchen door linings and architrave and leave it like that but again - I assume that isn't allowed either. (And I can see why- I'm not complaining - but just being honest about the fact that we will almost never have that door closed).

I was unaware of the upcoming changes. I guess all I can do is plan for the rules currently in place. If the rules change I may have wasted my money if what I do now is overkill or insufficient, but not sure that is a good reason not to put in fire doors where they would be required under the current regs. I was actually quite grateful to my builder for mentioning it - good practical thinking.

 

[Nakajo]

'I was unaware of the upcoming changes.' Well, you see there was this fire...

 

[tony1851]

"And a fire door that is left open is surely useless anyway."

Not necessarily; current regs don't require a self-closer and there is a reason for that.
Most deaths are caused by smoke inhalation. If you don't have alarms in the kitchen and habitable rooms but only in circulation areas, with closed fire doors, a fire could become well-established before smoke reaches the hallway/landing detectors, by which time it may be too late to escape.
If a door is open, there's a good chance that smoke from pre-ignition smouldering could set off the alarms fairly early on and provide sufficient time for escape before smoke completely fills the circulation area.
Some inspectors will allow you to dispense with fire doors if you have alarms in each habitable room as well as circulation areas.
As mentioned above, there are changes coming along. In Wales, it's already mandatory to have sprinklers so it may not be long if it's required in rUK.

 

[Nakajo]

I think the point is that an open fire-rated door performs no better than a non-fire rated one.

 

[JohnD]

And a fire door that is left open is surely useless anyway.

Undeniably true

 

[frutbunn]

You could future proof the loft conversion from any changes to the B regs by applying for it now, fitting the fire doors at this stage would constitute a start, there is no time limit on completing the work. Smoke detection is only required in the stairway. the doors should not be fitted with smoke seals as suggested unless you are proposing to install additional detection to every room opening onto the stairway.

 

[^woody^]

If a door is open, there's a good chance that smoke from pre-ignition smouldering could set off the alarms fairly early on and provide sufficient time for escape before smoke completely fills the circulation area.

That's a very poor assessment, and the wrong attitude.

Light smoke will get though the gaps around a closed door in enough quantities to set an alarm off, but the the door will hold back a significant amount of smoke to prevent it becoming a danger and also prevent the inevitable damage that it would otherwise cause around the property.

Even a closed non-fire door will help with this too.