Flashing LED’s

[ericmark]

I would exclude extra low voltage, however I have said before hard-wired boilers, cookers, kitchen/laundry appliances etc. would be not part of any EICR using IET guide lines, so not part of the installation, however the new landlord law quotes "The Electricity Safety, Quality and Continuity Regulations 2002" as giving the definition.

“consumer’s installation” means the electric lines situated upon the consumer’s side of the supply terminals together with any equipment permanently connected or intended to be permanently connected thereto on that side;

so it seems if permanently connected or intended to be permanently connected then it is included in at least the landlord EICR so if not considered as portable and it needs to be moved to reach the plug, then part of the installation. So it seems hard-wired boilers, cookers, kitchen/laundry appliances etc. do come under installation.

However if I was the person with the silly down lighters I would likely ignore the laws and regulations and replace the extra low voltage units with low voltage units (230 volt GU10) or re-wire so one electronic transformer powers enough lamps so the load exceeds the minimum written on the electronic transformer.

Which would be depending if I could return the extra low voltage bulbs or not.

The advert if you look carefully says

and I would say that is clearly misleading, but if supplied like this although it says

which does seem to say 35 watt although in fact 5 watt, once the packet is opened then they can't be replaced on the shelf, and I could under stand a shop not allowing them to be returned.

So which method is used depends on if the bulbs can be returned.

I apologise for bringing up the legal and regulation arguments, however I felt you needed to be aware there may be a latter problem if the property is rented, the toroidal lighting transformer option would work, but rather expensive. With a GU10 fitting the bulb is changed with a sucker where when a G5.3 fitting is converted it still uses the retaining ring, so harder to change, however we would hope that would not be that often.

 

[JohnW2]

I would exclude extra low voltage, however I have said before hard-wired boilers, cookers, kitchen/laundry appliances etc. would be not part of any EICR using IET guide lines, so not part of the installation ...

Quite so - not part of the installation as far as BS7671 is concerned.

... however the new landlord law quotes "The Electricity Safety, Quality and Continuity Regulations 2002" as giving the definition ....

Your comment was in relation to the requirement of BS7671 for a CPC to be run to "every point or accessory in the installation" (hence, in the "installation" as defined by BS7671). Neither the "new landlord law" nor ESQCR have any bearing on that.

... so it seems if permanently connected or intended to be permanently connected then it is included in at least the landlord EICR so if not considered as portable and it needs to be moved to reach the plug, then part of the installation. So it seems hard-wired boilers, cookers, kitchen/laundry appliances etc. do come under installation. .... I apologise for bringing up the legal and regulation arguments, however I felt you needed to be aware there may be a latter problem if the property is rented...

I think you are probably getting unnecessarily concerned, in terms of the seemingly intended interpretation of the relatively new law relating to electrical installations in private rented property.

Although that 'law' per se, is fairly vague (particularly in not adequately defining "installation", since it refers one to the Building Regulations 2010, which give a definition involving "fixed electrical equipment" without defining what that means!) about the nature of inspection/certification required, the associated government guidance document (click here) is a fair bit clearer and more explicit, and seems to make it fairly clear that a standard EICR, as defined in BS767`1:2018, is adequate (including adequacy of scope), without any suggestion requirements which goes beyond that. A few extracts from this Guidance:

Landlords of privately rented accommodation must:
... Ensure national standards for electrical safety are met. These are set out in the 18th edition of the ‘Wiring Regulations’, which are published as British Standard 7671.

The standards that should be met are set out in the 18th edition of the Wiring Regulations.

What will be inspected and tested?
The ‘fixed’ electrical parts of the property, like the wiring, the socket-outlets (plug sockets), the light fittings and the consumer unit (or fuse box) will be inspected. This will include permanently connected equipment such as showers and extractors.

What about electrical appliances like cookers, fridges, televisions etc?
The Regulations do not cover electrical appliances, only the fixed electrical installations.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

This will include permanently connected equipment such as showers and extractors.

so would include the boiler, immersion heater, motorised valves, tank thermostats etc. Which is a problem as many boilers to access the electrical connections means you need to be gas safe registered, although I would assume there would need to be a large sticker to say this cover must only be removed by gas safe or corgi registered personal.

But it makes no difference, the debate is adaptor or new fitting and GU10 or swap the transformer. If the guy has 96 lamps he does not want to buy a second lot of new lamps.

3.36 kW is all were 35 watt is a huge load, 14.6 amp, in the main we have 6 amp supplies as ceiling roses rated 6 amp, lighting junction boxes are normally 16 amp which is the maximum for supplies to many types of bulb. (B15. B22. E14. E27 or E40)

I know my son has fitted down lights, and with a high ceiling they do work, but most houses you could not walk under a push bike just under the ceiling, and it was lit by a 22 watt LED replacement for a fluorescent tube, now 16 x 3 watt so the silly spots use double what the old tube used, and seem no brighter, plus he seems to have had a whole load fail on him, he blames buying very cheap.

So if 35 watt then would need around 7 LED lamps grouped to same transformer to what originally fed one lamp. The problem is at kHz most electronic transformers are limited to 300 mm 12 volt leads, and state clearly for quartz halogen as once used with diodes these could become mini transmitters.

Personally I would suck it and see, and use my wave meter to look for any transmissions, and test to see if cordless phones, bluetooth or wifi seemed to be affected after fitting.

I have looked at some adverts for 0 - 105 watt electronic transformers and I see nothing warning about cable length

and the Dimensions
Length - 108mm.
Height - 33mm.
Width - 44mm.
Mean will fit through the lamp hole, looking at £10 to £14 depending on size, so actually cheaper to swap to GU10 for a single lamp.

 

[JohnW2]

so would include the boiler, immersion heater, motorised valves, tank thermostats etc.

Yep, it could be read as saying that - so I would suggest that, yet again, we have a document which is inadequate to indicate the intended interpretation - in this case it is the word "equipment" that had not been defined.

As for the "intended interpretation", I seriously doubt that (m)any electricians would even consider examining components of a heating system as part of an EICR, even if they had access and felt competent to do so, don't you?

As you always say in such issues of interpretation of less-than-totally-explicit/clear legislation, "only a Court can decide" (what was intended). However, even though such questions will almost never be tested in any Court, what I think you probably underestimate is the extent to which (if the questions ever did get to Court) the Court will usually apply 'common sense', which hopefully will be much the same common sense as you and I would apply.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

As I have said the court cases be it Pembrokeshire County Council Trading Standards v Mark Cummins or the Emma Shaw have produced results which don't seem to follow what would have been expected.

To my mind I would not expect work commissioned by one home owner with an EICR to be transferable to a new home owner, this is the whole reason why they said every 10 years or change of occupant, which ever sooner, and I would not say copying the results of a meter to paper was beyond the skills of an electricians mate.

To date I know of no court case where a DIY person has done some thing electrical in their own home, I am sure there must be, but it seems courts are used to bring professionals to task, and landlords/ladies.

Unless you know of a case where the home owner has been fined with an owner occupied home?

And I can't see anyone being taken to court for not running an earth even if required, the only problem with not complying assuming safe, is with rental property and some pedantic inspector.

 

[JohnW2]

As I have said the court cases be it Pembrokeshire County Council Trading Standards v Mark Cummins or the Emma Shaw have produced results which don't seem to follow what would have been expected.....

This has gone way way 'off-topic. I will respond in a new thread.

Kind Regards, John