Floors in extension have dropped, cracks in door frame

[mogwai72]

We have a 50 year old house which we extended last year. The builder is a reputable local firm and we used a structural engineer which led to masses of very expensive steelwork. We have building regs all signed off.

The extension was finished in December. The builder says he will come back and fix anything that goes wrong within the first 6 months. This is our second extension (last one was in another house) and our previous builder was a member of FMB. We paid for a 10 year guarantee on that extension and true to his word, the builder came back and fixed several niggly things over the years. He was a much smaller firm and couldn't have tackled the house we have just extended.

The original house was rectangular in shape and had a double garage attached. We demolished this garage as it was single skinned and lacked adequate foundations. We then built a two-storey side extension and single storey rear extension, so it's a 'wraparound' in total.

The double storey side extension consists of two bathrooms and a bedroom. The bathrooms run across the front of the house, so above the garage door there are two bathroom windows side by side. These rooms are separated by a stud wall. The bedroom is behind them and runs across the width of the extension.

About 6 weeks after we moved back into the house, we noticed that the bedroom floor had become very creaky around the entrance to the ensuite bathroom. The bedroom is carpeted and has a metal runner on the boundary with the ensuite floor tiles. This runner is now sitting proud of the floor tiles and the door scrapes across it when closed.

Secondary to this we noticed that the door into the family bathroom was jamming on the door frame. This became progressively worse and it's now very difficult to close it properly.

The grouting around the bathroom floors was falling to bits (both rooms have electric underfloor heating with theraml boarding and tiles on top). I posted on this forum and got some advice. The tiler came back and removed the grouting to replace it with flexible sealant. By the time he came to do the work, a large gap had opened beneath the stud wall separating the two bathrooms (I'd say it was 3mm) with a corresponding crack in the ceiling running in the same diection but about 1mm deep.

We now also have a crack in the door frame around the entrance to the bedroom. The crack runs horizontally and I guess you'd say it's slightly more than a hairline crack.

We have drawn our builder's attention to these issues and he has dismissed them as 'settlement' which I accept might be true. He hasn't been upstairs to look at the problem.

Today I spoke to the structural engineer. They have offered to come and look at the extension and report their findings for a fee of £150 plus VAT. This is a lot of money to us at the moment but I'm concious that our builder will only make good any problems within the first six months.

The engineer firm said they would look at it and if they thought it was 'over and above' what could be expected then they would ask the builder to open the affected area up and see what's happening. If they find nothing to critisize the builder for then we will have to pay for remedial action to put the house back to where it was.

We obviously have buildings insurance.

Can anyone advise what would be the ebst course of action and whether these sorts of signs are 'normal settlement'? I'm aware there is another current thread where floor joists appear to have sunk and there is a feeling that the underfloor heating might be responsible but would this affect the floor joists in our bedrrom and make them creak? Would it have led to the crack in the door frame for the bedroom. We didn't have these problems in the last house but didn't have underfloor heating either.

Advice gratefully received.

 

[mogwai72]

sorry, crack in door frame is diagonal

 

[merlin50]

yawn got fed up before i got to the end

 

[mogwai72]

thanks - really helpful.

If I hadn't given enough detail I'm sure you'd have pointed that out. People like you do.

 

[^woody^]

I recall replying to your previous post, and nothing seems to have altered with this post - so my other reply still stands

Are there any cracks to the ceiling below?

You may want to instruct someone to do a "snagging survey" or some hybrid report .. snagging/construction/quality. So be sure to instruct the correct person ... ie someone able to do this type of report.

I tend to find that SE's don't get involved on finishes and quality (in context of relevant standards) and just concentrate on structural stuff. Hence you need someone who can snag and report on structural matters. This may well be your current SE, but you need to ask as one report to cover all, will be better if you need to progress any claim

 

[mogwai72]

thanks

Yes, the thread here is just about the same as the last one and your advice is really appreciated.

My husband has taken a 'wait and see' approach but I'm concerned because (1) the builder says he will only put right in the first 6 months and (b) the crack in the door frame is new since I last posted.

I see whatyou mean about getting the right person for the job. I'll see what I can google!

 

[mointainwalker]

The builder may have limited his guarantee to 6 months but you can obviously pusue him after that albeit at a cost of time and stress to you and possibly money too.

The basis of responsibility these days tends to be "fit for purpose" and so a builder cannot honestly defend himself by saying that any problems (other than minor snagging ) that occur after six months in a major building-project are not his responsibility.

 

[tony1851]

Could this presumed 'settlement' be shrinkage of the timber due to drying-out by the underfloor heating? If there are steel beams within the floor, and they've put the tops of the timber joists level with the top of the steel, in time the joist can shrink and the chipboard will bow slightly upwards where it crosses over the steel.
That might be the cause, but I'm not a lawyer and wouldn't know who to blame.

 

[mogwai72]

thanks for your replies.

The point at which the main 'shrinkage seems to have occurred is about 3 metres back from the front elevation of the house. The main steel beam for this part of the house is across the front. The joists were put in place late September and to my knowledge they were dry but it does seem feasible that the underfloor heating could have caused a problem.

Now I come to think of it, we had a problem with the shower in the ensuite - it was leaking and the plumber couldn't work out what the problem was. The water was seeping under the shower tray between the tray and the floor and this was all about the same time we had the problem start with the creaky floor in the bedroom - about 0.5 metres from the shower tray.

The plumber kept coming to fix what he thought was wrong, we would try it and it would leak again - the water was dripping steadily through the floor and the ceiling in the garage had to be cut in order to locate the problem. Of course we refrained from using the shower other than to test it and this went on for about 6 weeks.

The problem turned out to be the hot water supply pipes to the shower head in a stud wall. They pipes hadn't been soldered properly and were leaking behind the tiles, down the wall and under the shower tray. Could this be connected?

 

[mogwai72]

thanks for your replies.

The point at which the main 'shrinkage seems to have occurred is about 3 metres back from the front elevation of the house. The main steel beam for this part of the house is across the front. The joists were put in place late September and to my knowledge they were dry but it does seem feasible that the underfloor heating could have caused a problem.

Now I come to think of it, we had a problem with the shower in the ensuite - it was leaking and the plumber couldn't work out what the problem was. The water was seeping under the shower tray between the tray and the floor and this was all about the same time we had the problem start with the creaky floor in the bedroom - about 0.5 metres from the shower tray.

The plumber kept coming to fix what he thought was wrong, we would try it and it would leak again - the water was dripping steadily through the floor and the ceiling in the garage had to be cut in order to locate the problem. Of course we refrained from using the shower other than to test it and this went on for about 6 weeks.

The problem turned out to be the hot water supply pipes to the shower head in a stud wall. They pipes hadn't been soldered properly and were leaking behind the tiles, down the wall and under the shower tray. Could this be connected?

 

[^woody^]

(1) the builder says he will only put right in the first 6 months

In England there can be liability for up to six years after the defect is discovered - and that is discovered not six years after the work is finished

In Scotland, IIRC the time period is 20 years, but I don't remember if that is from discovery or the completion date. Search for " latent defects " and " Prescription and Limitation (Scotland) Act 1973 ( as amended) "

 

[mogwai72]

thanks 'Woody'

 

[urbanite]

3mm cracks under stud walls are nothing that would concern a builder nor a Structural engineer. Timber shrinks, twists and warps, wait to see if it's just drying out which is normal. Unless you meant 30mm? If you can get your fingers in the cracks then you may have a structural problem. if cracks are reflected on the other side of walls then keep an eye on them, what i do is draw a small cross in pencil that intersects where the crack is, do about 1 per 6 inch, what you have is some tells to check periodically. write the dimension down somewhere, a good way is date it and write it next to the tell.

If you have has excessive moisture on the joists you would see this from underneath on the ceilings.

The leak under the shower, how bad was it, this may be the result of a small gap in the sealant around the shower tray, if they have tiled and fit the shower tray against the tiles then sealed in place, this will happen and can get worse if not attended to, ideally you should fit the shower tray against the correct moisture resistant backer board, install a drip over a sealing angle, this is done with weight in the tray to simulate usage, then the tiles are added and all left to dry before removing the weight. In an ideal world this happens and should give you a better chance of keeping the water from seeping around the edge of the tray.

The leak could also be a bit of grit in the thread of a drain pipe connector. or a split/deformed seal in the trap, there are so many reasons a shower will leak. condensation maybe from the cold pipe once it's running. I'm sure there are lots of other reasons people can throw in.
Has the leak since been fixed and do you notice any difference in the squeaky floor?

^woody^
You may want to instruct someone to do a "snagging survey" or some hybrid report .. snagging/construction/quality. So be sure to instruct the correct person ... ie someone able to do this type of report.

All these things are considered as minor snags, the advice from ^woody^ saying employ a snagging agent is excellent advice. A snagging agent can often get to the route of the problem and advise your builder on the method to put these right.

Try not to worry about these things, some simple tweaks are always necessary in new builds.

 

[tonygold]

yawn got fed up before i got to the end

are you some kind of moron?
someone who quite obviously has spent a large amount of money improving their home is asking for advice and is genuinely concerned. many who seek advice very rarely give sufficient details to allow others to assist so go away.

in answer to your questions raised, i think the £150 fee for the structural survey will be money well spent, in the great scheme of what has obviously already been spent. at least you will know how to instruct your builder to put right any defects (if it is shown there are some) rather than him just saying its just settlement.
i had a 2 storey extension built and aside from a few hairline plaster cracks have had no other movement issues. i really think you need to investigate this further.

 

[mogwai72]

Thank you for your continued advice, it's much appreciated.

I was so concerned that I spoke to the builder and he came to look at it this morning. He is quite satisfied that it's down to settlement and says he sees similar (and worse) all the time. He said that when a house is being renovated and extended during the colder months, there can be emergent problems once the owner moves back in and puts the heating on. This makes sense I guess.

Certainly the whole house has been replastered and their new plaster has shrunk away from the skirting boards. The skirting boards have slightly shrunk and gaps have opened up where they abut the Amtico flooring. These things don't concern me though they're annoying.

The idea about marking crosses on the gaps is excellent. We will continue to watch them for the next 6 months to see that happens.

The gap under the stud wall was definitely 3mm (less than half a centimetre) rather than the 30mm somebody mentioned. I wasn't clear about the shower issue - the shower with the leak seeping under the tray was in the ensuite. The sealant around the edge was never in question - the leak stemmed from the unsoldered pipes and this water dripped into the garage.

The other bathroom has a corner shower (Matki - so quite heavy stuff) and the shower tray had dropped away from the curved glass surround opening up a gap which rendered the shower unusable. Both of these issue have been resolved but I wondered whether the water sitting between the chipboard floor and the shower tray could have damaged the joists as this is close to the creaky floor. I guess by now it would be dried out anyway.