Gas Safe/ Keston C25 Exhaust tube/ and replacement

[tandem]

Hello, I'm a new non-technical member and I would appreciate advice.
My daughter has bought a flat with a keston C 25 boiler. It didn't start up. When the engineer came he replaced the exhaust tube because the existing one had deteriorated and had big holes in it. He said that the wrong tubes had been fitted, they should have been black ones not blue. He also said that if the boiler had started and worked hard my daughter would have died which is a shock to say the least. He advised me to contact Gas Safe and tell them about it. He also said that he had serviced other flats in the block (I think they all have Keston C25 systems) and there were boilers in worse condition that hers.
My questions are 1) am I right in contacting Gas Safe 2) should I inform the Managing Agents in case there are other cases like this one in the block? I would feel very bad if there were another incident like this which could have been avoided by me alerting someone.
Also, getting the Keston running properly will cost a lot of money and British Gas could replace the Keston with a Worcester on an outside wall for almost the same price.
This seems a more sensible and safer option but it will require a new 4 inch vent to be made in the outside wall. My daughter's solicitor has written to the Managing Agents seeking their permission.
Does anyone know if this is likely to be refused? The existing two holes in the outside wall for the flues for the existing Keston could of course be made good, so 2 smaller holes would be replaced by 1 larger one.
Sorry this is so long but I'm rather stressed.

 

[45yearsagasman]

I am unable to comment on the decisions of a management agents. All I can say is that the sooner you bin the Keston the better.
There were many instances of the wrong flue being used on these boilers and I don't think Gassafe will be at all interested. It goes back to the builders and original installers. It's a pity a full operational check wasn't done before purchase of the flat.

 

[Agile]

I think he is refering to the internal exaust flexible rather than to the flue.

He is one of only a very few people to be willing to repair this model. But I dont see why it should cost the £3000 that BG would charge for a new boiler. Most boilers can be repaired for £200-£400 even if they are in very poor condition.

Who was he anyway? From Ideal ( who bought Keston )? It sounds as if he was doing the usual exageration to frighten people. Kestons dont usually kill anyone because they so rarely work!

You dont say where the vendor comes into this. Its the vendor's responsibility to sell with a working boiler unless its disclosed as not working and sold specifically in this state.

I doubt that Gas Safe will have any interest unless you know who fitted the incorrect part. Thats if it really is incorrect.

You will save about £1000 having a new boiler fitted by a local independent rather that British Gas. They dont have any monopoly for fitting boilers!

Tony

 

[ianmcd]

I would contact Gas safe in writing and state your concerns about the other properties, dont expect too much from them though as they are pretty useless and only interested in collecting money from registered installers, but at least you have tried, you would get better advice from a competent installer and a better price than from BG if the management agents say no to a Concentric flue then there are other boilers that you could use a twin flue as the Keston does, but most importantly get rid of the Keston they are absolute rubbish and will constantly cost you money, the attending gas engineer should not have said that your daughter would have died that is just scaremongering yes the flue would have been dangerous but no one could say what would have happened

 

[tandem]

Thanks for responding.
Her solicitor obtained a copy of the service history of the boiler during conveyancing and it didn't indicate any unusual problems. The central heating system was working, presumably unsafely, when the flat was visited the day before completion.
None of us knew about the poor reputation of Keston systems. I suspect that when most people buy a dwelling they don't check to see if it has a Keston boiler.
I sincerely hope that Gas Safe do take the matter seriously because we have been advised by two gas engineers that my daughter could have died if they system had been working.
From what I've read and the costs involved the best option would be to replace the Keston C25 rather than having it fixed which would cost a lot and even then have an unreliable limited life by all acccounts.
The boiler is 11 years old.
The issues are 1) if she replaces the Keston what should she replace it with and should she have a system which can be repositioned on or closer to an outside wall 2) is permission normally forthcoming from Managing Agents to vent a new boiler to an outside wall of a block and 3) has she a moral duty to inform the managing agents in case other flats in the block may be unsafe because of faulty fitments to the Keston boilers and inadequate servicing as suggested by the engineer.
Hers had a full service history and had been working a few days before she moved in but still would have caused a fatality if it had been used.
We are looking at all the options but a flat without heating and hot water is barely inhabitable.
Finally if other people's lives in the block are at risk as hers was I feel a moral duty to do something about it.
Cost is not the primary consideration in this case. We simply want to get it sorted so that she can move into her flat and have a good, reliable, safe central heating and hot water system.

 

[ianmcd]

working a few days before she moved in but still would have caused a fatality

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You can not with any certainty say it would have caused a fatality ! it is possible but highly unlikely yes you MAY have got products of combustion entering the room but this does not automatically mean that there would have been enough Carbon Monoxide present to cause a fatality

 

[Agile]

You seem to have fallen very easily to the scaremongering from gas people! They often do that to encourage people to spend money ( with them ) to repair/replace the appliance!

Every property owner has a responsibility to themself and their family and neighbours to keep their gas installation safe and properly maintained by a registered engineer.

I dont see why you feel any need to write to other owners in your block. It is their own responsibility. Why not write to every householder in the country?

Any faulty boiler can kill people and not just Kestons. About 30 people are killed every year in the UK by faulty gas applicances! Thats compared to 3000 killed on the roads! Why not write to the whole population warning them of the dangers on the roads? That could save more lives!

Tony

 

[tandem]

ianmcd
Thank you very much for your reply which is a great help. I shall write to Gas Safe on this case and state my concerns about the other properties as you suggest.
You mention that if the Managing Agents say no to a concentric flue, which is presumably the 4 inch hole in the rear wall of the block which would be required to install a Worcester close to an outside wall, then there are other systems which use a twin flue like Keston.
Could you please tell me what they are and if they would use the existing holes to access the outside of the block.
When the engineer came to look at the boilder we did ask him about installing a new Keston and he said that the ceiling of one of the bedrooms would have to come down as the pipes, one bringing air in and one taking gases out, were larger than those already in place serving the existing boiler.
The messsage is loud and clear, replace the Keston. The question is what with and can it be done?

 

[tandem]

Thanks Agile/Tony
I may be naive but when I'm told that my daughter would have died if the system had been switched on I have to take it seriously.
I expect professional engineers to give professional advice which is accurate to the best of their ability and not engage in scare-mongering.
That's what I do as a professional person and I expect others to do the same.
As ianmcd has suggested I've taken the matter up with Gas Safe in the first instance.
If you have any suggestions on a system to replace the Keston C 25 it would be very helpful.
Thanks
Tandem

 

[ianmcd]

Kestons were preferred by Architects as they claim to be extremely flexible when flueing, the regs have changed since your boiler was installed and now you require inspection hatches where the flue passes through the ceiling, yes a concentric flue is the single flue or 4" as you called it, most boilers use these up to a certain length then change to a similar twin flue system as your Keston has as this increases the maximum length of the flue run, most however will run no problem at shorter lengths with a twin system if this is indeed required, I can not see there being a problem with a concentric flue if the twin system already terminates on an outside wall of the building, this is only usually a problem on listed buildings where you would not be allowed to terminate any flue to an outside wall

 

[Agile]

I expect professional engineers to give professional advice which is accurate to the best of their ability and not engage in scare-mongering.

That's what I do as a professional person and I expect others to do the same.

Thanks
Tandem

Whilst you expect that, the reality is that many gas people are verging on being cowboys by scaremongering about gas safety because they want to get the owner to spend money with them to repair/replace the gas applicance.

I suppose in their defence, they do need to over emphasise the dangers because most owners are so reluctant to spend to have the problems fixed.

That boiler is a room sealed appliance and a faulty exhaust tube INSIDE the case would not be likely to kill anyone!

With just 30 people a year being killed by faulty gas appliances that is an extremely low number when there are perhaps 100 million gas appliances in use!

Tony

 

[tandem]

A big thanks to everyone who posted.
Hopefully the agreement of the Managing Agents will be a formality and we can proceed.
In the unlikely event that permission isn't forthcoming and we have to use the existing holes in the wall and therefore a system similar to the Keston, what would members recommend?
I take the point that a Keston should be avoided at all costs.

 

[tandem]

I'm still waiting on the Managing Agents to give their permission to make a new hole in the back wall of the block to vent a Worcester boiler.
There are two options to replace the Keston C 25 which we are considering and I'd be very grateful for comments.
The first is to have a new gas boiler installed close to an outside wall, as mentioned. However this would involve putting the boiler in a bedroom. I've been advised that this is no problem because it's a sealed system. What I'm a bit concerned about is the Gas Regulatory Authorities whoever they are could decide in a few years that boilers in bedrooms are unacceptable.
They always seem to be changing the regulations. What are members views on boilers in bedrooms?
It would be boxed in to look like a cupboard.
The other option is to go electric and have 12 kw Heatrae Sadia Amtec boiler with 160 litre RM Stelflow Electic Only Combination Thermal Store and associated controls and a Magnaclean Professional 2 inline magnetic filter (I've no idea what all this means).
I've had both options assessed and the advice I've been given - and I've been very impressed with the people involved - is that the gas boiler option, with the boiler installed in the bedroom, is the preferred option.
I've been advised that putting the gas boiler in a bedroom is no problem, and will not be a problem, and gas set-up will be much more economical than the electic boiler/Amtec set-up.
I have read some where that Amtec apparently went bust because they were sued for not representing the costs of running their systems accurately, and were subsequently taken over by Heatrae Sadia.
Thank you