Generator back-up system

Tn-s = terra (earth) neutral - seperate

Tn-c-s = terra neutral - connected and seperated at installation origin

TT = terra terra
 
Sponsored Links
Tn-s = terra (earth) neutral - seperate
Tn-c-s = terra neutral - connected and seperated at installation origin
TT = terra terra
Yes, it must be clear from what I've written that I understand all that, but the crucial thing is understanding the different relevance of the first and second letters.

What would you call the system in the diagram in my recent post, and why?

Kind Regards, John
 
Sponsored Links
I agree with 1john - your system is TT when on the DNO supply. It is then TNS with a rod at the consumer end when running on genny.
 
I agree with 1john - your system is TT when on the DNO supply.
That happens to be true (with a different earth rod), but my DNO-supplied-supply (and associated MET, CUs/DBs and circuits) could equally well be TN-S or TN-C-S, without affect the discussion about the 'type' of the (separate) genny-supplied system.

It is then TNS with a rod at the consumer end when running on genny.
I suppose that must mean that you really think it is within the spirit of TN-S when the incoming separate conductor from the supply does not provide any path to earth (unless/until a consumer connects it to a path to earth) - but that surprises me. I still think that the fundamental property of any TN-x system (as compared with a TT or IT one) is that the supplier (usually the DNO), provides the earth (a path to earth) in the form of an 'earth terminal', either via their neutral or a separate conductor.

I think what may be causing some difficulty in this discussion is the fact that the system I'm describing (with the supply not earthed at all, other than via consumer-supplied electrodes) would obviously not be allowed for a DNO supply, so that no-one is used to having to think about such a system.

Kind Regards, John
 
(with the supply not earthed at all, other than via consumer-supplied electrodes) would obviously not be allowed for a DNO supply

Which ironically is a safer way to supply power to a single property as there is no risk of an electric shock between Live and Earth as the earth / ground in not included in the circuit.

For those who doubt this consider the isolated supply that comes out of a tranformer isolated shaver socket in a bath room. No earth connection so the supplyof 230 volts AC is safe for the user to shave with.

It all falls down when supplying more that one house because if Mr Smith shorts one side of the supply to ground in his house then Mr Jones could have a shock from the other side of the supply if he is in contact with ground.

Until Mr Jones has completed the circuit to ground neither of the RCDs in the two houses will operate.

Or if Mr Jone's wiring has a side A fault to ground then he will be be at risk of a shock between side B and ground. In this case if fault and shock contact point are both after the RCD there will be no un-balanced and no trip will occur.

So the DNO have to determine that one side of the supply will be grounded to ensure that almost all faults involving ground faults will create un-balance in the RCD
 
The thing is that your current set up with the rod doesn't provide any path back to earth either as your genny has no rod at that end and you are wholly relying on the CPC from the genny to the CU as your path to earth. The rod, in my eyes, serves no purpose.
 
(with the supply not earthed at all, other than via consumer-supplied electrodes) would obviously not be allowed for a DNO supply

Which ironically is a safer way to supply power to a single property as there is no risk of an electric shock between Live and Earth as the earth / ground in not included in the circuit.

For those who doubt this consider the isolated supply that comes out of a tranformer isolated shaver socket in a bath room. No earth connection so the supplyof 230 volts AC is safe for the user to shave with.
I don't think it is safer, it is fine for a single piece of current using apparatus such as your shaver socket but as you start to involve more circuits it becomes more complicated. You have to take into account multiple fault scenarios as the first fault will not be detected, double poled OCPDs etc.
 
(with the supply not earthed at all, other than via consumer-supplied electrodes) would obviously not be allowed for a DNO supply
Which ironically is a safer way to supply power to a single property as there is no risk of an electric shock between Live and Earth as the earth / ground in not included in the circuit. .... It all falls down when supplying more that one house because if Mr Smith shorts one side of the supply to ground in his house then Mr Jones could have a shock from the other side of the supply if he is in contact with ground.
.
I'm not quite sure why you think the 'safer' situation only falls down when there is more than one property involved. Why can't Mr Smith and Mr Jones live in the same property, and then behave as you have described?

This is surely one of the main arguments for earthing of supplies? By deliberately earthing one side of the supply, one knows exactly what is going on (in terms of potential differences from earth) and can do one's best to design in safety/protection, whereas without it, there are, as you point out, possibilities for unintended and unpredictable connections to earth. Were it not for that possibility of 'unintended' connections to earth, I imagine that floating supplies would be far safer than earthed ones.

Kind Regards, John.
 
The thing is that your current set up with the rod doesn't provide any path back to earth either as your genny has no rod at that end and you are wholly relying on the CPC from the genny to the CU as your path to earth.
Well, yes, and that's why I initially thought of it as an IT system. What is earthed is the MET, and hence the CPCs of 'the installation' - and the only purpose the CPC from genny to MET serves is to earth the frame etc. of the genny.

The rod, in my eyes, serves no purpose.
Maybe not. Indeed, even if there were no rod or explicit bonding of the 'genny installation' there would still be an 'incidental' path to earth from the CPCs of the 'genny installation final circuit' via pipework and the main installation's earthing and bonding (remember that the main purpose of the genny supply was for central heating). However, if it were not for that incidental earthing of the CPCs of that final circuit (upon which one theoretically should not rely), in the absence of my rod those CPCs would be 'floating'. Although I'm struggling to think of a reason, I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable about that.

Are you suggesting that I disconnect the earth rod? - it would obviously only take a few seconds!

Kind Regards, John.
 
I don't agree with it only being suitable for one piece of current using equipment as long as additional precautions are taken into account i.e. earth free local eq. bonding.
 
TN-S.....with an earth rod.
All TN-S supplies have some sort of connection with mother earth for the system at source, wether it be a rod, a tape or even a building steel structure.
 
The thing is that your current set up with the rod doesn't provide any path back to earth either as your genny has no rod at that end and you are wholly relying on the CPC from the genny to the CU as your path to earth.
Well, yes, and that's why I initially thought of it as an IT system. What is earthed is the MET, and hence the CPCs of 'the installation' - and the only purpose the CPC from genny to MET serves is to earth the frame etc. of the genny.
In an IT system you wouldn't have the N-E link in the generator, the source is left floating (or a big resistor linking N-E), I have only ever seen an installation installed like this installed once.
The rod, in my eyes, serves no purpose.
It serves the purpose of tying the system to earth. Without this tie items such as RCDs will not provide supplementary shock protection
Are you suggesting that I disconnect the earth rod? - it would obviously only take a few seconds!
That wouldn't be a good idea without knowing exactly what you have, is the N-E link present in the generator?
 

DIYnot Local

Staff member

If you need to find a tradesperson to get your job done, please try our local search below, or if you are doing it yourself you can find suppliers local to you.

Select the supplier or trade you require, enter your location to begin your search.


Are you a trade or supplier? You can create your listing free at DIYnot Local

 
Sponsored Links
Back
Top