Hanging "ledged and braced" doors to open outwards

[jcp]

I'm not quite sure which forum is right for this question.

All the room doors in our cottage are traditional, tongued and grooved, "ledged and braced" (like a garden gate and not framed). They all open inwards, hung using T-hinges screwed into the "ledges" (on the inside of the door). However, in a corner of our hallway we are adding a guest toilet, which for space and access reasons requires the door to open outwards into the hall. It would seem totally wrong to hang the door with the ledges and T-hinges in full view on the outside of the door. The hall-side of the door should be the uninterrupted tongued and grooved face.

So, should I use conventional door hinges, rebated into the door lining on one side and screwed into the endgrain of the ledges on the other (presumably with appropriate endgrain screws, and maybe some packing to reach the edge of the door)? But would this be sturdy enough? Alternatively, are there such things as cranked T-hinges (a bit like kitchen cabinet hinges), or should I crank back the T-legs myself (using a vice) so the remaining leg-lengths could be screwed as normal (but actually "back to front") onto the faces of the ledges on the inside of the door?

Any advice on this (or any other) way to hang this door would be greatly welcome.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

It would seem totally wrong to hang the door with the ledges and T-hinges in full view on the outside of the door.

It was done in the past, though - think about shed doors, for example

I am curious about the type of hinges you actually have. Do you mean hinges like these:

or like these strap hinges:

I presume it's the lower type we are talking about

So, should I use conventional door hinges, rebated into the door lining on one side and screwed into the endgrain of the ledges on the other (presumably with appropriate endgrain screws, and maybe some packing to reach the edge of the door)? But would this be sturdy enough? Alternatively, are there such things as cranked T-hinges (a bit like kitchen cabinet hinges), or should I crank back the T-legs myself (using a vice) so the remaining leg-lengths could be screwed as normal (but actually "back to front") onto the faces of the ledges on the inside of the door?

Well, for starters there is no such thing as an "end grain screw", appropriate or otherwise. Any screws put into end grain are going to be more likely to pull out over time, but it also sounds like the ledges are set back slightly from the edges of the door meaning that a packer would be necessary whatever type of hinge is used. I don't thing conventional butt hinges would be at all useful. You can get "pre-bent!" ones (called cranked strap hinges) like these (from Ironmongery World and others):

but I think they are designed for face mounting on doors which are inset from the face of the frame, rather than what you are looking for. So it may indeed be easist just to use a vice and bend your own

 

[jcp]

Thanks for that JobAndKnock.

Yes, I should have realised that I could fix the hinges on the front face of the door, screwed through the Tongued and Grooved boards into the ledges on the back face. My garage doors are like that. So it would only be the hinges on full display in the hall (probably acceptable). And yes, my hinges would be strap hinges (but my local hardware shop called them T-hinges).

You are also right that the cranked hinges you showed would not work - it is the strap part I want cranked back - to pass behind the door edge and fix to the back face of the ledge.

I could challenge you on screws appropriate for endgrain use, some flatpack furniture does supply long self tapper screws for such use, having deeper profile and longer pitch threads - more like plasterboard screws. However, I too am sceptical that screws into endgrain would provide a lasting grip.

So it looks like I should try cranking my hinges in a vice, and if that doesn’t seem OK, then just try again with some new (unbent) strap hinges in full view on the front side of the door.

Thanks again for your helpful response to my question.

 

[big-all]

general comments
end grain only exists at the long cut end off the timber where you see the curve in the grain across the timber
so any door side hung and made in a conventional way will never have hinge screws in end grain [side grain is not end grain ]

aaaannnddd if J&K says somthing its from many many even many many years off full trade experience so in general gospel and accurate information so any comments are far more fact than opinion
yes like most off us he is human but on such a basic as screws never ever wrong
now if you are suggesting screwing into the cross timbers then thats an unusual way
in general you only do face [or back surface ] level with the frame and connected too a flush surface with strap hinges
cranked can be but used dont tend to look good indoors as overly heavy
now if i have misunderstood sorry and ignore my rantings

 

[Diver Fred]

Well we look and learn...

I understand what you mean by 'T Hinges' as a long 'strap' hingeing to a 'leaf' similar to a butt hinge; "Strap" hinges I know as both leaf's of the hinge being long, equal length leaves. But of course differing parts of the country have different names for the same item.

Well jcp you have think about what you do. Are you buying in the L&B doors? or making up yourself?
With buying in you will have to bend the T-hinges to suit the depth of the Ledge and facing carefully so that the hinge leaf that fixes to the lining doesn't bind. So I guess the bend will have to be the thickness of the door facing plus ledge from the centre of the hinge pin.
Making up the door yourself you could consider having the door hinge leaf between the ledge and facing - obviously the ledge will need cutting out to suit. The bend will not be as far from the hinge pin in that case.

You also have 'interesting' jambs to make up to work around the ledges.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

I could challenge you on screws appropriate for endgrain use, some flatpack furniture does supply long self tapper screws for such use, having deeper profile and longer pitch threads - more like plasterboard screws.

Sound like what you are talking about there is a Confirmat screw which were designed for use making right angle joints in chipbboard and pine board flat pack furniture back in the 1960s

Chipboard in particular has no grain and is fairly weak, so these screws act more like a threaded dowel than a screw.

Confirmats tend to be OK when the furniture is new. But in furniture like wardrobes and wardrobes and book cases the fastenings are only ever carrying a static, mostly vertical load where there is minimal risk of pull out. Drag a fully laden bookcase which has been assembled with Confirmats across a carpeted floor and you'll see how well these long screws survive "dynamic loading". If you look at the those screws you can clearly see that the bodies are fatter than even a #12 (6mm) wood screw (they are about 7.5mm) - so you'd need to redrill the hinges to accommodate them. Not sure if they would sit flush into the countersinks on the hinges, either as the lip at the top of the screw is quite thick

The issue is that there is quite a lot of load applied particularly to the upper hinge of any door. The hinge screws have to resist the pull out force. By screwing into long grain they can do that because the grain at the top and bottom edges of the screw is not severed by the threads - any screw going into end grain has the problem that by screwing it in you sever the grain as you drive it leaving only short grain holding the screw. Over time this is far more likely to fail, and pull-out, than a screw going into long grain. That is why you normally avoid it. The work around for that is to drill the face of the timber and glue-in some long grain dowels, ensuring that any (conventional wood) screws go through these dowels. That is how you get butt hinges to reliably hold a hreavy ledged door without pulling out. But TBH it's a PIA to do and it is always visible

 

[jcp]

Hi again all, and especially "J&K".

I certainly didn't want to start an argument over semantics, and I believe I confirmed my respect for, agreement with, and thanks for the answers I received. I also know what endgrain is and why screws don't really hold in it. I avoid screwing directly into it like the plague (except for turned wooden drawer knobs, where I have found that drilling and sticking in a plastic "rawlplug" generally gives sufficient holding for a screw.

And I really don't want to continue any argument on semantics, but I must say in my defence that in a web search for "strap hinges" most hits actually linked to websites headlining the term "T-hinges", so I assume it is a frequently used alias.

That "Confirmat" screw does look rather like the screw I was thinking of as an "endgrain screw" - and it was still being used in 2010 flat-pack kitchen cupboards.

Anyway, the plus point of this exchange is that I greatly value the responses I have had, and I now realise the "Bl***ing obvious", that for some reason I had not seen before. I can screw the strap hinges through the front side of the door and into the ledges on the back side (to achieve a reliable purchase). The hinges don't really worry me, it was the ledges in full view I wanted to avoid!

Thanks all