Help after pump change - possible air in system

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Hello all,

If any of you could help me with a potential answer to this I would really appreciate it.

I have a potteron netaheat 80 in an S plan configuration, the boiler is located on the ground floor and has no drain points as such that I can see. So imagine a long run of 22mm flow and return to the boiler. F & E tank in the loft, the 2 port valves are working and are also in the loft.

The pump sits above the boiler I have drained the system down a few times before and always refilled with no issue.

Last week I introduced some cleaner into the system and let it run for a few days, drained down on the weekend and refilled, bled the radiators, there was a bit of air in the pump which bled out through the old pump ( grundfos) and the system was ok.

Never had to change the pump or do anything to it previously, but it did need a change now and so replaced it with a Grundfos UPS3 which is supposed to self bleed.

The whole system is run by a tado programmer with thermostatic heads on all the rads.

Pump was changed and with it brought water that was in the pipes on the run down to it which was expelled into a bucket.

Refilled system, bled radiators as before and started system up. Pump is noisy so followed manufactures recommendation to run it at 3 for 30 mins as it's supposed to expel it to a higher point in the system.

Since then I have had limited luck in getting any heat into the house, boiler fires, I get HW being heated and the rooms maybe get to temp after a while ( longer than what I would expect) usually the house teats up quick and tado does a good job of managing the valves.

Theres small pockets of air in the rads every now and again so I am assuming it's being pushed around the system in small quantities and sometimes ends up in some of the bigger rads / towel rad.

There are bleed legs on the ends of the 2 port vales, so bled them and one had a bit of air, there is a bottle automatic air vent near the cylinder (ROBOCOL) and the screw at the top has been snapped off. In all honesty I've never had to mess with it.

My question is three fold.

1) Does this sound like a legitimate explanation for my issues of a noisy pump and rubbish performance from a system that was previously good ( in that the air cant vent from the highest point)

2) To fit this would I have to do a full drain down again or just let out enough to dissipate the pressure and tie up the F & E filler.

3) Once fitted shall I bleed as I always have or is there something new to it.

Thank you in advance, apologies for a lengthy preamble.
 
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I'll give you my experience with my system which is similar to yours,

New pumps are much better than old pumps. Variable speed pumps especially so. Whilst i wonder if you took note of the pump model and speed before the change, i wouldn't be surprised to find that your new pump is stronger on any setting.
The pump manf assume your system is plumbed correctly and that you your gear is correctly sized. In my case, this is (was ) not the case.

I discovered that the new pump was pumping over at top speed and this was partly so because the neutral point was plumbed in wrong. It was put in after the pump, not before.
My new pump is far stronger than the old one (even though it is the smallest model i could get at the merchants.)

What i did was replumb the system to move the neutral point to its correct position before the pump.......
However, i am not suggesting you do this!

What i did do after that was first set all the valves (including zone valves) open. I then ran the pump the highest fixed speed i could without pumping over (check the FE tank).

Then, after 30 mins, i closed the rads off and went round in a circuit having just one rad open at a time, open to the pump.
I then bled everything and after a few days, the system settled down.

I did all of this with the boiler stat OFF. (the boiler controls the pump) so that the boiler would spin the pump but not fire up.

So in summary, perhaps your pump is too big. Have a look at the FE tank when you are running the pump up.
 
Hello, thank you for your reply. Mine is not pumping over ( as in back into the F & E Tank), the replacement pump is a replacement for the outgoing pump, but a modern day equivalent.

Interesting to get the pump to activate without firing the boiler.

Thanks,
 
1) Does this sound like a legitimate explanation for my issues of a noisy pump and rubbish performance from a system that was previously good ( in that the air cant vent from the highest point)

2) To fit this would I have to do a full drain down again or just let out enough to dissipate the pressure and tie up the F & E filler.

3) Once fitted shall I bleed as I always have or is there something new to it.

1. Possibly, you may find out if you do 2..

2. You only need to tie up the F&E, then drain down to a level below the fitting, to enable you to replace it.

3. It should bleed automatically, but they are never 100% reliable.

When you drained to install the new pump, what state was the drained water in? If it's not air, I have in mind a blockage some where in the system.

Final job, once you have it all sorted - add an appropriate amount of inhibitor to the system.
 
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When you drained to install the new pump, what state was the drained water in? If it's not air, I have in mind a blockage some where in the system.

Final job, once you have it all sorted - add an appropriate amount of inhibitor to the system.

Hello Harry,

Thank you for the reply, the drained water was OK. Bearing in mind I have drained down last weekend it was relatively clear, no sludge.

Thanks for the tip on the inhibitor.
 
What kind of noise is the pump making? If it sounds like white noise, sizzling bacon frying noise, or sand blasting noise, then the pump is cavitating. You can correct this by lowering the pump speed.
 
What kind of noise is the pump making? If it sounds like white noise, sizzling bacon frying noise, or sand blasting noise, then the pump is cavitating. You can correct this by lowering the pump speed.

Hi, it's making a schlap schlap schlap noise sorry if that sounds silly. It's on the lowest setting at the moment ( speed 1)

It's also worth noting that if you turn off the CH and HW from the programmer ( so both zone valves close) the pump does go quieter.
 
Did you check the obvious stuff?
Pump valves fully working and open.
Pump the right way round.....
Water tank full.
Rad valves fully opened and not sticking, etc, etc.
 
Yes checked all those Pump valves are new ( changed them as the old ones were ropey) Pump is right way around, water tank is full and clear ( cleaned that out by hand on the weekend to ensure no dirt got sucked into the system) rad valves are open.

Thanks for the reply.
 
Guessing here.
Your new pump is variable speed.
Your old pump wasn't?

Put the pump on fixed speed setting only?
Variable speed pumps need to have the system designed for it
 
How many radiators have you got? Speed 1 will likely be too slow for a typical house of 10 radiators.

If you have nothing better to do then putting the old pump back will help you assess if there is anything wrong with the new pump. I installed a UPS3 a few weeks ago and had no problems. Speed 2 was good enough for 10 radiators and hot water tank.

You mentioned that there was air in the radiators. This is a good thing because you can then remove the air easily. If properly built, the pipework should be self venting air into the expansion tank.
 
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When you say the pump is the right way round, do you mean the arrow on the body points in the same direction as the arrow on the old one? Easy to put a new one in in the same orientation, but forget to check the arrow. Don't ask how I know.
 

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