Help to fit hot water pump

[BigMacRacing]

Hi all,

I have now bought a pump after calling Pump Assist - Stuart Turner Monsoon Universal 3.0 bar Single for boosting the hot water pressure, as seen here: http://www.stuart-turner.co.uk/products/monsoon/u30-bar-single/

Please see below for a couple of annotated pictures - hopefully I am correct on labels but there are also some unknowns if you can answer?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3setcm10bd32xqx/BoilerRight.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4tjy1ohovceg6cv/BoilerLeft.png?dl=0

Could you help with following questions please?
1). Am I correct with the hot water outlet label in picture linked above? i.e. this is one pump needs connecting to
2). Do I need to cut a section out of lower end of hot water outlet to allow pump connection?
3). Do I need to connect extra piping with bend joints to allow inlet & outlet to connect vertically into pump? Pump connections both face upwards and presumably flexi hoses need to remain straight?

Anything else please let me know.

Many thanks,
Kieren[/list][/list]

 

[ALCPlumbing]

Having a quick look you've got it all wrong. The pipe you've labelled as hot water outlet is actually the flow from the boiler to the coil in the cylinder. The hot water outlet will be the pipe that comes out of the very top of the cylinder.
I assume the pump is for the hot water at all of the outlets and not just your shower is that right?
With the type of setup you have it is likely that the cold supply to your bathroom is fed from the tank in the loft. In this case you really need to be pumping the cold as well as the hot as if you don't have equal pressures it will be difficult to mix the hot and cold to a suitable temperature. You'll find it will either be completely hot, too hot too shower, or completely cold.
However if you want to go ahead and fit the pump you ideally should fit a Surrey flange on top of the cylinder to ensure the pump doesn't draw in any air and then run the hot water outlet through the pump.

 

[ALCPlumbing]

If you look at your photo labelled boilerleft the pipe labelled expansion tank is the hot water outlet. It tees into a pipe at the back of the cupboard and the part that goes up into the loft is the vent/expansion pipe and where it goes downwards it is going to all of your taps to supply hot water. That's the pipe you need to connect to. That pipe on the left of the picture is the cold water feeding the cylinder from the tank in the loft.
I have a feeling this may be a bit much for a DIY job given your knowledge. Please don't take offence but if you had connected to the pipe you thought was the hot water outlet you would have had a big problem. I suggest you get a decent plumber in. Having said that I'd be more than happy to tell you what to do if you really do want to tackle it yourself but as I said before if your cold supply to the bathroom is also tank fed, which it should be given that your hot water is, then you need to be fitting a twin pump to pump the cold as well at the hot.

 

[BigMacRacing]

Hi, thanks very much for your quick response and advice!! Good job I checked

Yes the pump is for all the hot water outlets.

Ah yes the pump booklet does mention a recommendation to fit a flange to avoid air as you say.

So if it needs to be connected to the top pipe and pump needs to sit on floor, would you recommend to connect extra piping for the pump inlet & outlet as the flexi hoses are short?

Thanks

 

[BigMacRacing]

Hi again, really do appreciate your advice and no offence at all I put my hands up, I'm an absolute novice in this field but trying to learn and not bodge up at same time. So I really need to decide on sticking with this pump or going for the dual as you suggest. In my old house a similar setup was applied in terms of hot only and that worked great so that's why I thought this would work out OK. Cheers,
Kieren

 

[ALCPlumbing]

Personally I'd fit a twin pump. But that's up to you. You'll need to do a small amount of adjustment to the pipework and you'll need a 22mm pipeslice to cut the pipe. If you're not able to solder pipes you'll need to use compression fittings which will require an adjustable spanner and a pair of medium sized water pump pliers aka grips. Trace the cold feed to the cylinder. This is the pipe on the left that connects to the cylinder at the lowest point. Trace it into the loft to see if there is a valve to shut off the supply to the cylinder. Shut it off and run the hot tap downstairs to drain the pipework also open the bathroom hot tap to help. Undo the connection on top of the cylinder and cut above and below the tee of the pipe it tees into at the back of the cupboard. Remove the male iron from the top of the cylinder and fit a Surrey flange. It will need to be taped up with ptfe tape. About 18 wraps will do. The Surrey flange has two connections. The top one connects to the vent pipe which is the part of the pipe you cut that leads to the loft. The side connection of the flange connects to the pipe hot water supply pipe below the vent pipe. Now sit the pump in position and cut into the hot water supply pipe and connect the upper part of the pipe to the pump inlet and the pump outlet to the pipe that continues under the floor so it's drawing water in from the cylinder and pumping out to your taps. You will probably need a couple of elbows to do that as you don't want to kink the flexible hoses. Open up the supply to the cylinder and check for leaks. If satisfied add electricity. If you decide to go for a twin pump I think the pipe to the right hand side of the hot water supply pipe running down the back of the cupboard is the cold supply from the tank. You will need to trace the pipe to confirm this. It should connect to the bottom of the tank in the loft. If so shut off the water supply to it and drain the pipe and cut into it in the same way as the hot pipe and connect the upper part to the inlet and the outlet from pump to the part that continues under the floor. Simples.

 

[ALCPlumbing]

Bear in mind if you fit a twin, and this is why most people only pump the shower, every time you flush the toilet it will run the pump as the cistern refills. Even at 2am. Which can be annoying to say the least as they are noisy.

 

[BigMacRacing]

Thank you so much for the instructions and advice, good of you to take the time!!

There is certainly a fair bit of work like you say especially for my current skill level. I'll digest properly this evening and make a decision whether to do myself or seek an expert.

I'll let you know how I get on.

Many thanks,
Kieren

 

[BigMacRacing]

Hi - I'm resurrecting this thread as some work has finally been done...and by a plumber, not me you'll be glad to know. ACLPlumbing, if you can offer further advice that would be great!

Main original requirement was to increase the shower pressure - currently only the main bathroom is used but would be great if en suite was also sorted by same solution - I guess this is mainly why I looked at fitting a pump to begin with. I'm not fussed to have the taps boosted, just the showers. And I didn't fancy the idea of pump going on with toilets, etc.

The pump I had purchased was a Stuart Turner Monsoon Universal 3.0 bar Single - the plumber had mentioned my bath/shower tap mixer may prove a problem after fitting due to not pumping the cold as well (something ACLPlumbing also said). My plumber had said if it was a problem, then a different sort of tap could be sought. Well it is a problem and no alternative tap seems to be an option...so looks like solution needs to be rethought! Going with a plumber I had hoped the right solution would have been decided on from the start The pump is boosting all hot water outlets but cold is still as it was. All taps work fine - it is even fine when it mixes out of the bath/shower mixer tap - hot & cold mixes fine. It is only a problem when it comes out of the hose fitting on the bath/shower tap - presumably due to combination of smaller diameter pipe & loss of pressure with climb to the shower head?? When shower head is lowered the water goes cold, suggesting height/pressure is the problem. We can just about have a shower with it like this but can only turn the hot tap slightly to avoid high pressure - this would lead to only hot water - the cold tap turns hot and the cold then takes a while to run through after turning hot off. The flange was also fitted to the tank. Stuart Turner pump assist suggested using a PRV - I am skeptical as I would have thought this would just reduce the hot pressure to a level that voids the need for the pump, i.e. we won't get pressure we were after - correct me if I'm wrong please?

So this is what the tap looks like in the main bathroom:
http://www.tradingdepot.co.uk/external/commerce/1/gfx/main/VACLBSMCMT.jpg
The en suite will be re-done so that is open to options.
I need to sort this out and ideally not incurring massive expense so looking for best option please.
I'm not sure if the pump could be refunded or exchanged due to nature of product and being outside of returns period!!

Options I am told are following:

1). Power shower in main bathroom - I don't really like idea of this & it would negate need for pump
2). Digital shower in main bathroom & same in en suite when it comes to sorting that out - this sounds ideal if we were to start again & sounds right for the en suite when we come to do that, as we would like that to be our main shower. Main bathroom would be more for my boy (bath) and guests so not as fussed over this being fancy...so maybe that suggests option 1 as best?! With this option, again, it would negate need for pump
3). Change single pump for twin model - don't think I fancy idea of pump on for toilet, etc but maybe simplest option?? Also no idea if can exchange pump outside of returns policy!
4). I'm not sure if there is another option for changing how pump is fitted so that it is only for main bathroom shower??
5). Is there another option for changing the bath tap/shower fitting?! something to avoid gravity issue and allow hot & cold to mix just as it does when it comes out of the bath/shower mixer tap??

Surely 4 & 5 would be cheapest solution if either of those were an option??? (clutching at straws maybe!!).

Main bathroom is immediate need to sort...en suite can come after. But obviously I'm also looking at overall cost with what has been spent already for pump & fitting, sorting main bathroom, later sorting en suite.

I am open to suggestions....and thank you if you have ready this far!!!

Cheers,
Kieren

 

[Madrab]

Out of all of this I haven't seen any mention as to what the cold mains static and dynamic pressures are?

The pump should have never been bought without that pressure being considered. Everyone spots that there would be too much pressure out of the pumped HW supply but still carried on??.

Is the bath shower fed from a tanked cold or mains? if tanked then it's well out of balance and would never work right with a 3 bar HW supply, unless the CWSC is 30m above of course

The pump should have been bought that was as close to the cold mains pressure as possible to avoid these issues and the colds on the hot pumped outlets run from the mains to provide you with a balanced supply. That's why ST are suggesting a PRV, as the pump is not fit for purpose and is delivering too high a pressure for your setup.

You can pump hot and cold and just avoid toilet etc and just run that from the mains.

Your plumber(s) should have sorted this all out for you with a suitable design spec TBH. Needs a bit of redesign and jigging to sort it out IMO.