Ive come across a light fitting made up of bits off wood and about 20 lampholders about 40w each no metal in sight, if a note is made on a periodic inspection form that this has been found does it then pass over to the owner whether he has it removed or not.
Homemade light fitting
- Thread starter chowbasa
- Start date
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Of course the owner has the last say as to whether he continues to use something he has been made aware of as unsafe, unless it is a mandatory Health and Safety issue (usually invoked in the case of a business) electrics are only covered by Regulations which are not Law in themselves but merely an advisement in procuring a prosecution.
The way to look at it is, you have shed your legal responsibility in issuing the certificate advising of the unsafe item and whether the owner acts on that advice is purely up to them no judge would hold you responsible for any future incident
The way to look at it is, you have shed your legal responsibility in issuing the certificate advising of the unsafe item and whether the owner acts on that advice is purely up to them no judge would hold you responsible for any future incident
I can't see anything in what chowbasa says, or describes, that could lead you to decide this light is unsafe....
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From your statement whether the owner removes it or not suggested that you didn't approve of it hence the reply, If you believe it to be ok then there isnt anything to worry about in submitting a report, If in an inspection one considers all ok then if an incident does arise later on, it's up to the reporter to justify his remarks, I'd personally ask questions of the owner as to what application he'd be putting the fitting to use in and work out if there could be safety issues in it's use like that.
Any appliance whether it has kitemarks, approvals, certificates or whatever can be a dangerous tool if used inappropriately, it is up to the competant person to advise the unqualified people of misuse etc.
Any appliance whether it has kitemarks, approvals, certificates or whatever can be a dangerous tool if used inappropriately, it is up to the competant person to advise the unqualified people of misuse etc.
B
Big_Spark
Chowbasa, if it is electrically sound, ie, by performing a PAT test on it, then there is no real issue, as you said in your original post, make a clear note of the fact that the fitting does not possess any BS or EN certificates, but it has passed a PAT test.
It is then purely the responsibility of the Installation owner to decide whether they wish to use the fitting.
It is then purely the responsibility of the Installation owner to decide whether they wish to use the fitting.
You say that but is it true?chowbasa said:
What sort of "lampholders" are they?
FWL wrote:
In so far as PAT testing is concerned is it a portable appliance? does it have a plug? if not then it doesn't come under the PAT test but under the Installation Tests.
Please don't have a go FWL for the fact i picked up on the comment, I just felt i had to correct it
Isn't that what i said?
In so far as PAT testing is concerned is it a portable appliance? does it have a plug? if not then it doesn't come under the PAT test but under the Installation Tests.
Please don't have a go FWL for the fact i picked up on the comment, I just felt i had to correct it
B
Big_Spark
kendor said:
Not having a go, and you are technically correct, however you can perform a PAT on such an appliance with a little lateral thinking. If it passes the PAT test then you know it is electrically safe to use.
You could perform similar tests using a Mega, but you could not FLASH test it.
Agreed FWL for peace of mind you could use a pat tester but in an official capacity in making reports i feel that the use of an approved tester with current calibration cerificate to validate the tests , should be used, so if the Aforementioned "appliance" is indeed a portable appliance then use a pat tester otherwise treat it as part of an installation and apply the installation tests in accordance with IEE Regs.
Regarding the Kitemarks, The manufacturers can only validate the item as is, it is up to the installer to comply with the Regs when using the item in an installation to make sure he/she doesn't negate the inherent safety of the device in it's application.
I'm not saying that screwing it to a bit of wood necessarily makes it unsafe,after all we all screw items to wood everyday when we attach them to joists just the way it is applied and used.
I subscribe to the "throwaway rule" in that if it is broken then don't fix it, throw it away and buy a new one to replace it.
If one attempts to repair an item then it is classed as being modified from the original spec as the likes of most of us albeit totally competant and safe in what we do, havn't got the facilities ,test instruments or licence to carry out the kitemark validation and therefore the manufacturer quite rightly can shed their responsibilities unless they themselves carry out the repair and retest the item.
I'm sure that most will repair equipment even down to component level and will at one stage or another have had to use equivalents as the original wasn't available, this would be classed as "modified" by the manufacturer even if the component was of an equal or better spec than the original a lot of equipment these days have seals that when broken invalidate their Approvals.
In this day and age of Reponsibilities under the Health and Safety Act encompassing the Electricity at Work Act, It is so easy to put oneself in a vunerable situation regarding whether one has "offloaded their responsiblities" This regards not only use of approved equipment,safe installation procedures but also advise to endusers, if you see something unsafe it is your responsibility to inform someone, The EAW act although law when covering situations at workplaces does not cover domestic situations it is like the IEE regs not law in this case but if you work to it then you would cover yourself if an injury or death occured. In court under Health and Safety Law you are guilty until proven innocent.
So as i originally stated if you think something is unsafe or you are not sure then condemn it, it is safer to err on the cautious side than to put yourself in a compromising situation just to "help someone out"
Regarding the Flash Test, this should usually only be carried out if the appliance has been rewired as the test in itself degrades the insulation of the wiring and is not to be used as a regular test on appliances but if you suspect the insulating properties to be suspect then yes use it but not as a matter of course.
Anyway i think i have bleated on enough!
Regarding the Kitemarks, The manufacturers can only validate the item as is, it is up to the installer to comply with the Regs when using the item in an installation to make sure he/she doesn't negate the inherent safety of the device in it's application.
I'm not saying that screwing it to a bit of wood necessarily makes it unsafe,after all we all screw items to wood everyday when we attach them to joists just the way it is applied and used.
I subscribe to the "throwaway rule" in that if it is broken then don't fix it, throw it away and buy a new one to replace it.
If one attempts to repair an item then it is classed as being modified from the original spec as the likes of most of us albeit totally competant and safe in what we do, havn't got the facilities ,test instruments or licence to carry out the kitemark validation and therefore the manufacturer quite rightly can shed their responsibilities unless they themselves carry out the repair and retest the item.
I'm sure that most will repair equipment even down to component level and will at one stage or another have had to use equivalents as the original wasn't available, this would be classed as "modified" by the manufacturer even if the component was of an equal or better spec than the original a lot of equipment these days have seals that when broken invalidate their Approvals.
In this day and age of Reponsibilities under the Health and Safety Act encompassing the Electricity at Work Act, It is so easy to put oneself in a vunerable situation regarding whether one has "offloaded their responsiblities" This regards not only use of approved equipment,safe installation procedures but also advise to endusers, if you see something unsafe it is your responsibility to inform someone, The EAW act although law when covering situations at workplaces does not cover domestic situations it is like the IEE regs not law in this case but if you work to it then you would cover yourself if an injury or death occured. In court under Health and Safety Law you are guilty until proven innocent.
So as i originally stated if you think something is unsafe or you are not sure then condemn it, it is safer to err on the cautious side than to put yourself in a compromising situation just to "help someone out"
Regarding the Flash Test, this should usually only be carried out if the appliance has been rewired as the test in itself degrades the insulation of the wiring and is not to be used as a regular test on appliances but if you suspect the insulating properties to be suspect then yes use it but not as a matter of course.
Anyway i think i have bleated on enough!
B
Big_Spark
Kendor, your post ended with a comment about bleeting, I agree that is what you did. Your entire post tells me that you have read a few things today, and not understood a bean about any of it.
In this situation the Electricity at Work Act plays absolutely no part, and the IEE does no express an opinion on domestically owned appliances being PAT tested, so why you have seen fit to mention any of this escapes me.
If you truly understood anything about what you have been bleeting on about, you would know that an appliance or piece of electrical equipment which is not part of the installation has two classifications, they are either Portable equipment or Fixed (static) equipment.
In the case of the light fitting, it would be classed as fixed equipment, and there are set guidelines for testing said euipment. Under these guidelines fixed equipment is to be treated as seperate from the Installation as thus tested independently. Further, so long as adequate precautions are taken to avoid danger to persons or damage to the equipment, a PAT tester may be used to verify the safety of the equipment, or any other accepted tester which can perform the accepted tests.
Regarding calibrated equipment, all contractors test equipment should be re-calibrated annually, if it is not then the results are meaningless as they cannot be relied upon. This is also true should an instrument recieve a substantial impact, such as being dropped from more that 600mm.
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600mm? That's the trouble with engineers, they're so damn precise!!
Only kidding!
Only kidding!
B
Big_Spark
securespark said:600mm? That's the trouble with engineers, they're so damn precise!!
Only kidding!
Not fair..gonna tell my mummy!
There you go exactly what i was saying in earlier posts, you are arrogant self opiniated and down right rude in your replies! I would never have been drawn into writing such a strong reply but you really take the biscuit and deserve all you get.
Oh dear FWL I thought You knew what you were talking about but you obviously are a Bullsh*tter, you try to baffle people with science when it is you that hasn't got a clue! I was correct in what i said , Do you always use the wrong tool for the job? Heaven help the people you've done jobs for then! You don't read the posts properly, mentioning what i said about the Electricity at Work Act, you would have seen that i mentioned it doesn't apply to domestic premises hell the very title tells you that but i was merely accepting that you might have some intelligence when i wrote that and would have understood the gist of what i was saying,I was obviously wrong! I was making the comment that you can't go wrong if you work to the Regs etc the whole point i was making was that you should work to at least if not above the standard of the IEE regs or other such guidelines.
For you to attack someone with your comments as though you are always right when in fact you give out inaccurate information (the Flash test above for example) Leaves a lot to be desired
Having been a fully qualified time served apprenticeship tradesman for 30 years and done all the relevant courses over the years and also recently done refresher courses, perhaps you should see fit to doing some yourself, instead of reading the noddy manuals you obviously take your so called facts from!
No one said whether the light fitting was fixed, wired in or plugged, that is why i mentioned the word "IF" or are 2 letter words a problem for you? Who can't take criticism now then??? I am waiting for your next bit of abuse.
Oh dear FWL I thought You knew what you were talking about but you obviously are a Bullsh*tter, you try to baffle people with science when it is you that hasn't got a clue! I was correct in what i said , Do you always use the wrong tool for the job? Heaven help the people you've done jobs for then! You don't read the posts properly, mentioning what i said about the Electricity at Work Act, you would have seen that i mentioned it doesn't apply to domestic premises hell the very title tells you that but i was merely accepting that you might have some intelligence when i wrote that and would have understood the gist of what i was saying,I was obviously wrong! I was making the comment that you can't go wrong if you work to the Regs etc the whole point i was making was that you should work to at least if not above the standard of the IEE regs or other such guidelines.
For you to attack someone with your comments as though you are always right when in fact you give out inaccurate information (the Flash test above for example) Leaves a lot to be desired
Having been a fully qualified time served apprenticeship tradesman for 30 years and done all the relevant courses over the years and also recently done refresher courses, perhaps you should see fit to doing some yourself, instead of reading the noddy manuals you obviously take your so called facts from!
No one said whether the light fitting was fixed, wired in or plugged, that is why i mentioned the word "IF" or are 2 letter words a problem for you? Who can't take criticism now then??? I am waiting for your next bit of abuse.
B
Big_Spark
Kendor, thanks for the insults, just what I need
Regarding the EAW Act, I apologise, I miss read the last part of the sentence where you did acknowledge it does not apply to domestic properties.
However there is nothing wrong with the rest of my post..except maybe on relfection it was a bit harsh to say the least!!
Maybe in future though you should monitor how you respond to others posts, as many of yours recently have been derisary, insulting, illinformed and totally uneccessary..which is probably why I responded in my post a little too harshly.
Incidently, I banged on about the flash test as it is a requirement of the BSi and many other bits of legislation that all electrical products for sale or use in the UK must pass a flash test relevent to their designed voltage .
This is not something your average spark will encounter, so I am not surprised by your reaction to this idea, the PAT tester is the only one available to the average spark that would allow the use of Flash Test on the equipment..that is also why in my first post I stated they needed to use lateral thinking to apply it, and I would not recommend a DIYer even playing with a PAT tester, let alone doing a flash test.
Regarding the EAW Act, I apologise, I miss read the last part of the sentence where you did acknowledge it does not apply to domestic properties.
However there is nothing wrong with the rest of my post..except maybe on relfection it was a bit harsh to say the least!!
Maybe in future though you should monitor how you respond to others posts, as many of yours recently have been derisary, insulting, illinformed and totally uneccessary..which is probably why I responded in my post a little too harshly.
Incidently, I banged on about the flash test as it is a requirement of the BSi and many other bits of legislation that all electrical products for sale or use in the UK must pass a flash test relevent to their designed voltage .
This is not something your average spark will encounter, so I am not surprised by your reaction to this idea, the PAT tester is the only one available to the average spark that would allow the use of Flash Test on the equipment..that is also why in my first post I stated they needed to use lateral thinking to apply it, and I would not recommend a DIYer even playing with a PAT tester, let alone doing a flash test.
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