How to add a second subwoofer to 5.1 system...

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Hi all,

After some great advice on here I have finally sorted out 10 ceiling speakers around the ground floor of my house using a spare Onkyo 5.1 surround sound system I had. I invested a lot of time in making MDF boxes for the speakers in the ceiling and was careful to select speakers and wire in series to keep impedance in line with the amp’s capabilities. The sound is truly surprisingly good, rich and warm with crisp highs and punchy mids, so happy!

But... the house is fairly large and using the one Onkyo sub is only giving good bass coverage around 2/3 of the space. I want to split the sub feed and run a second passive sub the other end of the open plan space.

I am going to pick up an exact match to the existing 6ohm Onkyo sub, the question is whether I should wire this in series or parallel being as I am splitting a single subwoofer feed. Again, I don’t want to overload the amp but everything I’ve read online relating to this exact requirement makes no mention of impedance. As far as I’m concerned a speaker is a speaker and the wiring is really important but maybe I’m missing something with regards to a large driver / low frequencies and the demands it places on the amp is less significant?

Any advice?
 
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I'm no expert, but even I am aware that wiring up two speakers in either parallel or series connection will affect the overall resistance which might well affect the outcome and possibly damage the amplifier.

More learned members will, I'm sure, offer more reliable advice.
 
I'm no expert, but even I am aware that wiring up two speakers in either parallel or series connection will affect the overall resistance which might well affect the outcome and possibly damage the amplifier.

More learned members will, I'm sure, offer more reliable advice.

Yep, exactly right. I’ve confused myself by reading some rubbish articles!

They must be wired in series to ensure the impedance doesn’t drop too low for the amp.
 
As speaker cone size increases then the lower the frequency range it can reproduce, but the larger the load it puts on the amp driving it compared to higher-frequency speakers.

The issue will all speakers is that the impedance isn't constant. The amount of power sucked from the amp varies with frequency and something called phase angle. When decent Hi-Fi mags review speakers they produce graphs which trace the impedance and phase angle as it changes with frequency. The result often looks like some kind of mad roller coaster ride as both values vary quite a lot. Thinking about just the impedance for a moment, your 6 Ohm nominal impedance speaker can look like a 12 Ohm load at one frequency, and like a 2 Ohm load at another. The lower the impedance gets to zero Ohms then the more the load resembles a short circuit. That's death to any amp running at volume. This is why we avoid running two or more speakers in parallel.

Phase angle you can think of in terms of efficiency. The closer to 0 degrees the phase angle then the more efficient the power transfer to the speaker. As phase gets closer to 90 degrees then the worse the efficiency.

A good visual example would be pushing your car along a road. The closer you are to pushing in the same direction as the car is pointing then the easier the job. This is a phase angle of 0 degrees. Try moving the car by pushing on the passenger door at 90 degrees to the direction of travel means you'd waste all your energy pushing in the wrong direction.

Okay, so that's all the 'sciency' bits taken care of; so what does this mean for you and your system...

You're absolutely correct that a passive sub is just a speaker. What I've illustrated above though is that speakers aren't simple resistors; they place a more complex load on the amp, and the larger the speaker then the bigger that complex load becomes.

At the moment you haven't said what in-ceiling speakers you're running, but if I make some educated guesses based on what you've written then I'd say they're somewhere between 4 and 8 Ohm each which gives you 8 to 16 Ohms per channel with a pair wired in series per channel of the 5.1 Onkyo receiver. That's okay because the amp will be rated to cope with a 6-16 Ohm load per channel.

Reading between the lines, you intimated that the Onkyo sub makes a useful contribution filling in the bottom end for some of the space you have to fill. By that then, and knowing the specs of Onkyo passive subs, would it be fair to say that the inceilings don't make much bass on their own? This means that they're either quite small drivers, or maybe speakers with a 5"-6" driver but fairly small magnet assembly which limits their bass.

Onkyo passive subs will get down to a useful 45-50Hz before the volume for lower frequencies starts tailing off quickly. For some models they claim 30Hz, but that's not really achievable from a 6.5" cone, so what they're measuring or quoting (more likely) is the port frequency.

Adding an additional 6 Ohm load on the amps sub channel by wiring in series won't kill the amp, but it will limit the maximum volume. What you need to remember is that the power supply in the amp isn't unlimited. It probably draws about 300-350W from the mains at full power. If we allow a 10% margin for a bit of heat loss and running the pre-amp and processing features then there's roughly 270-310W available at the power supply taps. Transistor amps are roughly 60-70% efficient which means we have a theoretical 160-215W in total to split across 6 channels. The result is around 25-35 Watts per channel.

The Onkyo subs aren't so efficient. I've seen figures at 82dB/W/m. Depending on the efficiency of the inceiling speakers then the sub channel is going to draw 2-3 times the amount of power compared to each of the main channels. That's not a problem if all you need is a bit of background music, but it's a bit more of a concern if you want to have the sound loud enough to be heard over the chatter of a party.

You see, the design of all consumer gear is driven by cost. In this case we're interested in the specification of the output transistors on the subwoofer channel.

It was designed for a single 6 Ohm speaker. You're planning on doubling the impedance load which means that the volume will drop by half. Having then to run the volume control higher in order to to create an acceptable sound level in the room, and that means using more Watts. If we start to get close to the power limit of what the transistor pair can pass continually then the first thing you'll find is audio distortion and the amp running quite hot. Push it too far and there'll be a "plink" sound followed by silence and a little smoke signal marking the amp's unconditional surrender :ROFLMAO:



If this or any other reply was helpful to you, then do the decent thing and click the THANKS button. It appears when you hover the mouse pointer near the Quote Multi-quote buttons. This is the proper way to show your thanks for the time and help someone gave you.
 
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Can you not use an active Sub?
that way (if your amp has a sub out) you can loop as many subs as you want (within reason)
 
Amazing info @Lucid thanks!

So to give you full insight I had a spare Onkyo 5.1 system which I decided to use to give ceiling speakers. The standard speakers with the system were 6ohm.

I spent some time looking at Polk ceiling speakers and after lots of back and forth life threw a curveball and I ended up with five pairs of 3ohm Alpine car speakers from the Halfords sale! I’ll give them a try I thought, £30 per pair versus £200.

Anyway, wired in series two to each channel the overall impedance per channel is 6ohm just as the standard speakers were. They sound great, I’m really genuinely surprised by the sound. However, as you note, as three-way speakers they lack bass even at 20cm.

I’ve just had a trial setup with a second sub in series and it does provide low frequencies across the entire space whereas before the space was too big for just a single. I’ve lost some volume but with a few tweaks in the settings I’m pretty happy.
 
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Series is the only way not to damage your amp.

If you never have it over 50% then you have room to alter the fade/ bass etc to compensate for having two subs off 1 output.

Personally I'd have driven the second sub off its own amp, but that can add complications as well!.

W have Sonos so it sorts itself out (most of the time!).
 
Can you not use an active Sub?
that way (if your amp has a sub out) you can loop as many subs as you want (within reason)

I'm presuming that this one of those Onkyo amps that came with a passive sub as a complete home cinema kit. If that's the case, then there's a very good chance that it has no line level subwoofer out socket. It'll only have speaker terminals.

It's a good call though to suggest using a powered sub, and not just to take the heavy lifting duties off the amp. There are a couple of ways that a powered sub can be run an amp without a line level subwoofer socket. The first is to use a device that converts the speaker level signal to line level. The Russound ADP-1.2 is just such an adapter.

You would connect one channel of this in parallel with your existing subwoofer connection. The resistors you can see allow the Onkyo sub to run normally whilst taking a tap off to run a powered sub. The clever thing is that this draws no extra power from the amp than running a single sub. Other versions of this type of convertor exist, and they're cheaper, but cheaper for two reasons. First, the quality of the components. Budget versions are made for car audio where background noise will drown out most of the distortion. Second - and more importantly - it's the power handling. The Russound is built to deal with amps as large as 200W. The cheap ones are half the price, but max out at 20W / 25W / 30W depending on model and price. That's no good if the sub might be running at 40-50W.

You could also look at a sub with this sort of tech' built-in. BK Electronics make very good subs with exactly this. Their range starts at £225 with the BK Gemini II. It's a 10"-coned powered sub with great performance from a very compact box. They make excellent second-hand buys if you come across one on a forum or via Ebay.

There's an additional advantage in running a powered sub: The sub has its own controls to help fine tune the crossover frequency, the volume and the phase. This means it can blend far more effectively with the main speakers. Phase is particularly useful in this respect.


If this or any other reply was helpful to you, then do the decent thing and click the THANKS button. It appears when you hover the mouse pointer near the Quote Multi-quote buttons. This is the proper way to show your thanks for the time and help someone gave you.
 
Thanks again @Lucid, I’m now sold on the idea of adding an active sub into the mix.

If I understand correctly the Gemini II has high level inputs and I can connect it to my Onkyo 5.1 system in parallel with the existing passive sub?

The next question then is do I go for the Gemini II or plump for the XLS200? The reason I ask is the size of the room I’m filling; it’s a T-shaped open plan space with the main run measuring 12m x 5m and then teeing off that a space of 6m x 7m. The reviews of the Gemini seem to suggest its good for small to medium spaces so I’m wondering whether I should go bigger?

Given that I was happy with the Onkyo sub on its own in the 12m x 5m space perhaps the Gemini would suffice. I would run the Gemini in the larger area and move the Onkyo into the 6m x 7m area.

Thoughts?
 
If you can afford it then definitely go bigger. Subs fall in to two main categories: Sealed box, and Ported.

The Gemini II and XLS200 are sealed box (SB) subs, as are the XLS400 and the Double Gem. The first of BK's ported subs are the Monoliths. Sealed box subs give very controlled bass, and they can go loud. They're a great match for music, and the better ones will do very nicely for movies too. However, if you have a very large space to fill then a ported design will do that more easily. In very crude terms, they go louder for the same amplifier wattage.

Before we get too carried away on subs, let's just relate this back to the Onkyo sub you're using. That, compared to the Gemini II, just isn't in the same league. Where the Onkyo will thump away in a rather tuneless one-note fashion, the Gemini will play musical notes and phrases. Where the Onkyo runs out of steam and starts to distort at higher volumes, the Gemini will stay sweet and powerful. Where the Onkyo gets muddled and the bass notes lose their definition, the Gemini II with remain composed and controlled. The bottom line then is that if you've been happy with the way that the Onkyo fills 2/3rds of your open plan space with bass to this point, then any of the BK subs will knock your socks off, and that includes the Gemini II.

If this or any other reply was helpful to you, then do the decent thing and click the THANKS button. It appears when you hover the mouse pointer near the Quote Multi-quote buttons. This is the proper way to show your thanks for the time and help someone gave you.
 
Before we get too carried away on subs, let's just relate this back to the Onkyo sub you're using. That, compared to the Gemini II, just isn't in the same league

Good shout. I’m no audiophile, what I’m content with I’m sure would be laughable to expert ears! For this reason I decided to fight the urge to go bigger and bigger and plumped for the Gemini II. If it doesn’t work out I’ll swap it for something bigger but as you say, it’s going to be head and shoulders above the little passive Onkyo.

Thanks again for all the help. I’ll be sure to report back on a Thursday!
 

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