Ideal Classic RS250 gurgling noises, sludge in tank, pics

[ConfusedinOxfordshire]

Hello everyone

My parents have a wall-hung Ideal Classic RS250 boiler as part of an open vented system. For quite few months it has been making 'flushing' and 'gurgling' noises.

The boiler downstairs in a utility room, hung on an external wall with a horizontal flue passing through the wall. There is an filling & expansion tank in the loft. On the floor below the tank's location is an airing cupboard containing a hot water tank and the central heating pump (and associated pipework). The pump is a Grundfoss Selectric 15-50 set to speed position 2. There is also a Honeywell three-way valve.

The noises occur when the heating and hot water come on, especially in the morning. When the hot water comes on, a trickling/gurgling noise can be heard from the pipework going into the top of the boiler.

When the heating comes on there is a loud flushing/bubbling noise from the airing cupboard and bubbles can be heard flowing into an adjacent bedroom radiator.

There are 12 radiators in the house with a total output of 8000 watts. This includes a towel rail in the main bathroom. The three bedroom radiators are fitted with Aladdin automatic air-release valves. All the radiators are regularly checked for air, but none is found, water drains out as soon as the key is turned. The bleed valve in the airing cupboard is checked too, but no air or gas comes out that one either. The radiators seem to be hot all over, I can't feel any cold spots.

I went into the attic and checked the f&e tank and it has a lot of sludge in it and the water is murky.

Untitled

• ConfusedinOxfordshire
• 1 Dec 2010
• 2

The heating system is approx 12 years old (installed when the house was built) and was powerflushed by a Corgi registered heating engineer in summer 2009 (my father wanted this done as a precautionary measure). I do not believe there have been any problems with the system before, it has never suffered any breakdowns.

In march this year, two radiators were replaced with double convectors and the system was drained in the process. This was a DIY installation, I assisted my father, we drained the system and I completely emptied the f&e tank in the attic and cleaned it of any sludge deposits, (I don't think the heating engineer who did the powerflush cleaned the tank).

We poured buckets of clean water into the tank until the the water drained clear, and refilled the system, adding two 1-litre bottles of Sentinel X100 via the f&e tank. All radiator valves were checked to release air and the valve in the airing cupboard.

Sorry for the very long post , I have tried to cover everything that may explain the situation.

Untitled

• ConfusedinOxfordshire
• 1 Dec 2010
• 1

Untitled

• ConfusedinOxfordshire
• 1 Dec 2010
• 1

More pics are in my gallery

Thanks in advance

Paul

 

[Hugh Jaleak]

Noise is probably due to the pump pulling air round the system. Not sure about the state of the water in the F&E tank, for a system thats been flushed and inhibitor added it looks rather filthy.

 

[spraggo]

It would be interesting to know how far the the vent pipe dips into the header tank. If it is below the water level this could be your problem.

 

[ConfusedinOxfordshire]

It would be interesting to know how far the the vent pipe dips into the header tank. If it is below the water level this could be your problem.

Hi

By vent pipe, do you mean the one that comes in via the top? That stops well above the water level, here is a better picture:

Untitled

• ConfusedinOxfordshire
• 1 Dec 2010
• 1

Thanks for looking

 

[spraggo]

Yes the vent is OK. Is the pump in the airing cupboard?, is there a by pass fitted between the pump and the three way valve, going to the return? is the valve on this by pass fully open or shut?. Try the alternatives and see if it makes any difference, thats if you have a by pass valve of course.

 

[ConfusedinOxfordshire]

Yes the vent is OK. Is the pump in the airing cupboard?, is there a by pass fitted between the pump and the three way valve, going to the return? is the valve on this by pass fully open or shut?. Try the alternatives and see if it makes any difference, thats if you have a by pass valve of course.

Hi

The three-way valve is directly above the pump, I don't think there is a bypass. Can you tell from these pictures?

Untitled

• ConfusedinOxfordshire
• 1 Dec 2010
• 1

Untitled

• ConfusedinOxfordshire
• 1 Dec 2010
• 1

I moved the lever on the valve all the way to the left just before I took the photos, it was originally about a third of the way along from the left. Does it reposition itself or do I have to re-adjust it?

Thanks

Paul

 

[spraggo]

OK, so you don`t have a bypass, don`t worry about the lever it will reset itself. It seems that you have only one pipe coming from the loft to the heating system, so I take it that you have a combined feed/vent.
Where does this pipe connect into your heating system, the one on the left in the photo.

 

[rgas]

To me it just sounds asif air is trapped in the system, you could try bleeding the pump (looks like it will be very difficult, the installer doesnt seem to of used his head!), try turning the pump speeds up and down to see if that will shift it (remember to put it back to the original setting after) Also check where your vent and cold fill pipes (from f&e tank) connect to the pipework.

 

[ConfusedinOxfordshire]

OK, so you don`t have a bypass, don`t worry about the lever it will reset itself. It seems that you have only one pipe coming from the loft to the heating system, so I take it that you have a combined feed/vent.
Where does this pipe connect into your heating system, the one on the left in the photo.

Hi spraggo

If you mean the pipe from the front of the three-way valve, that just goes down into the floor, I have no idea where it goes to from there, perhaps the boiler?

Two pipes come from the loft and join together in a large connection, I think the RGI called it an air seperator. The two pipes are on the top of the following picture:

Untitled

• ConfusedinOxfordshire
• 1 Dec 2010
• 1

The picture should be rotated anti-clockwise, the left is down and the right is up to the loft.

Here are where the pipes come out directly above into the loft:

Untitled

• ConfusedinOxfordshire
• 1 Dec 2010
• 1

The two pipes from the previous pic are on the left in the above pic

Her's another angle:

Untitled

• ConfusedinOxfordshire
• 1 Dec 2010
• 1

One pipe seems to be the vent into the tank and the other seems to be the feed from the tank

The air seperator thing is in the middle of this pic:

Untitled

• ConfusedinOxfordshire
• 1 Dec 2010
• 1

The two pipes from the attic, coming from the right join into it.

 

[ConfusedinOxfordshire]

To me it just sounds asif air is trapped in the system, you could try bleeding the pump (looks like it will be very difficult, the installer doesnt seem to of used his head!), try turning the pump speeds up and down to see if that will shift it (remember to put it back to the original setting after) Also check where your vent and cold fill pipes (from f&e tank) connect to the pipework.

I forgot to say that the pump is a new one that was replaced at the same time as the powerflush was done. I don't know why he installed it towards the tank, as I remember the old one faced outwards.

 

[spraggo]

It seems that the pipes coming from the attic are indeed connected into what looks like an Aerjec ll de-aerator, if this is the case judging by the photo, it has not been installed correctly, as the two ports pointing towards the pump should be connected to the flow and return, ie, top connection CH flow from boiler, bottom connection CH flow out to inlet of pump. The port situated the other side of this aerjec, pointing towards the wall should be the feed in from the header tank and the top connection the vent to the header tank. It is common practice to fit this unit above the pump and 3 port valve . Hope I have explained it enough for you to understand. By the way the pump can be easily turned by turning off the isolating valves, slackening the two large nuts above and below it and turning to face outwards. then tightening nuts and opening valves etc.

 

[ConfusedinOxfordshire]

Hi

I found a diagram, do you think my parents' ch system corresponds with system 2 in the diagram?

Untitled

• ConfusedinOxfordshire
• 1 Dec 2010
• 2

Do you think the aerjec will be of much concern? The system had not been really any trouble until recently.

Do you think the sludge and murky water may be a sign of 'pumping over'?

Should we have bled the boiler when we refilled the system? We didn't think to do this at the time and I wouldn’t know how to do it.

 

[Nige F]

doesn`t look like an airjec to me but another type of neutral-point "patent" connector.

 

[ConfusedinOxfordshire]

doesn`t look like an airjec to me but another type of neutral-point "patent" connector.

The house was built by David Wilson homes in the late 90's. I don't know if they commonly used these things in their heating system installations?

 

[spraggo]

As I suspected it is a "aerjec" which is confirmed by the small print on your diagram (made by "Myson" from the mid Eighties). If you compare figure 4, in your diagram, with your existing pipe lay out in the airing cupboard, you will see what I mean about it being installed incorrectly. Obviously for this reason it is not guaranteed that it is doing it`s job correctly and there fore could be the reason for the air in your system. I would therefore advise you to consider re-installing it correctly, unfortunately this will mean quite a bit of pipe work alterations. I would do away with this unit and alter the pipe work to the "H" configuration regarding the feed and vent. The boiler would have automatically bled its self on refill,
There does not seem to be to much of a problem with sludge by looking at the photo of the head tank. The sediment that is there is usually caused by the expansion of water going up to the into the header tank via the cold water feed and then re-entering the system as the water cools. This will cause some of the inhibitor to enter the header tank causing the water to change coluor. There does not seem to be any problem with pumping over.