IEE Regs and Smoke Alarms

[Wintonian]

I have just completed a complete rewire of a semi-detached property. Apart from a new gas central heating system being fitted and new kitchen and bathroom equipment being installed, no other major work has been carried out. Certainly no building or extension work has been done.

Building Regs do NOT require that smoke alarms be fitted to the house. This has been confirmed by the LABC.

The electrical inspectors, however, insist that the IEE Regs require two interconnected mains smoke alarms to be fitted. I thought this only applied to New builds or houses that had been SUBSTANTIALLY altered.

I am, in fact, going to fit the alarms because it is a very good idea for safety, but I wondered if anyone could state the legal position on this, for clarity, because it would appear that the IEE regs and the Building Regs are in conflict on this point.

Thanks

 

[Chri5]

Building regs over IEE, due to IEE being advisory rather than regulatory / statuatory.

Could someone quote from the 16th edition, I might need to read and jolt my memory on this.
16th ed does mention keeping a distance from existing light fittings, pretty sure that smoke detectors should be 600mm minimum away from lights.

 

[Wintonian]

Thanks for the comment. I do not want to get into a detailed discussion with the inspector over this matter, but I do think he is wrong to say that he will insist on the alarms being fitted as a condition of certification. Getting a little above himself, perhaps?

The following describes positioning, from Building Control guidance notes:
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Number and position of smoke alarms

The smoke alarms should be provided to the circulation area of each and every floor of the dwelling. The unit should be no more than 7.5m from the door to every habitable room, whilst also being close enough to bedroom doors for the alarm to be effective when occupants are asleep (say 3m).

Note: If the kitchen is not separated from the circulation space by a door, a compatible interlinked heat detector should also be provided in the kitchen.

Each alarm should preferably be fixed to the ceiling in a central position and at least 300mm from any wall or light fitting. If the unit is designed to be wall mounted, it should be fixed above the level of the doorway opening in accordance with manufacturers instructions.

Note: The sensor in ceiling mounted devices is between 25mm and 600mm below the ceiling (25mm – 150mm in the case of heat detectors)

Alarms should not be fixed next to or directly above heaters, ducted air outlets or in bathrooms, showers, cooking areas or garages, where steam, condensation or fumes can give false alarms. Likewise, alarms should not be fitted in very hot or very cold rooms (e.g. boiler rooms or unheated porches), where the air currents may move smoke away from the unit.

When positioning a self-contained smoke alarm consideration should be given to the safe testing, cleaning and maintenance of the unit. For this reason the alarm should not be fixed over a stair shaft or an opening in a floor.

 

[tim west]

Both the IEE and Building are regs and therefore advisory not statutory.
So I can't see either taking precedence over another.
Yet in saying that you are at the mercy of an individual inspector and it's up to you whether you want to keep him sweet or not.

 

[Wintonian]

Both the IEE and Building are regs and therefore advisory not statutory.
So I can't see either taking precedence over another.
Yet in saying that you are at the mercy of an individual inspector and it's up to you whether you want to keep him sweet or not.

I have no wish to try to tell the inspector (contracted by the LABC) how to do his job - he is clearly a very knowledgable and highly experienced electrical engineer (he is also a very nice bloke!), working to what he truly believes to be the correct standards in his inspection. I have no problem with that, but it does seem to be the case that "qualified" people do not have clear enough guidelines. I am sure that this has as much to do with the bad drafting of Regs as the lack of understanding of them by LABCs.

In the hands of many unprofessional electrical tradesmen the Regs are used to enforce unnecessary work in premises, relying on the ignorance of customers, who assume that the tradesman knows the regs.

 

[Taylortwocities]

The following describes positioning, from Building Control guidance notes:
-------------------------------------------------------------
Number and position of smoke alarms

The smoke alarms should be provided .

etc

The telling words in the above are GUIDANCE (instead of regulation) and SHOULD instead of MUST.

The text is a guide only. I would ask the nice inspector to help you by providing the reference to the regulation that says you must do this. you could say what he is saying isn't what you have been told and would like to swot up so you dont make the same mistake again. That way he'll think he's helping you and may well discover that he is the one who is misguided. Just a thought....

 

[dingbat]

I have just completed a complete rewire of a semi-detached property.
Building Regs do NOT require that smoke alarms be fitted to the house. This has been confirmed by the LABC.

Fair enough then.

The electrical inspectors, however, insist that the IEE Regs require two interconnected mains smoke alarms to be fitted. I thought this only applied to New builds or houses that had been SUBSTANTIALLY altered.

The IEE Requirements for Electrical Installations (BS 7671) makes no such prescription. The regs are not concerned with what is installed, only in how it is installed.

If they believe otherwise, ask them to find 'smoke alarms' in the index. In fact, if they are insisting that a lack of smoke alarms is in some way a non-compliance with BS 7671 then they have insufficient knowledge of the wiring regs and are thus incompetent in the eyes of the law (Electricity at Work Regulations 1989 - Regulation 16)

The requirement for provision of a means of warning in the event of a fire are contained in Part B of the Building Regulations (which are statutory, by the way).

As your LABC have ruled that they are not required that should be the end of the matter.

 

[dingbat]

... it does seem to be the case that "qualified" people do not have clear enough guidelines. I am sure that this has as much to do with the bad drafting of Regs as the lack of understanding of them by LABCs.

The regs are absolutely NOT unclear. They are very precise and uncontradictory, but these excuses are often used by the ignorant.

In the hands of many unprofessional electrical tradesmen the Regs are used to enforce unnecessary work in premises, relying on the ignorance of customers, who assume that the tradesman knows the regs.

Most tradesmen in most trades do not understand many of the regulations that govern their work.
For the honest but ignorant tradesman this usually results in less work than necessary being undertaken! (But I agree that the cowboy will use the "It's the law, guv!" to his advantage.)

 

[Pensdown]

The requirement for provision of a means of warning in the event of a fire are contained in Part B of the Building Regulations (which are statutory, by the way).

Thats where I get confused. I can't find any reference in Part B that says smoke alarms should only be fitted in new builds, ie a build that is VAT exempt.

However, the OSG and the NIC (not statutory) say they are excluded from the building regs for a new extension because it's not a new build

As far as I'm aware, ALL of the current building regs are applicable at the time of a building regs approval?

I hope someone can refer to the section in Part B that I've missed

 

[Wintonian]

Just to say thanks to all who made useful comments (and that means everyone!).

I am pleased to say that my house re-wire was inspected and tested on Monday and passed with no problems. I was amazed at the thoroughness of the testing procedure. This house, built in 1967, will now be one of the few in the area to have wiring certified to the latest standards. And I have saved many thousands of pounds by doing it myself. Of course, it took longer because I had to fit it in with my normal work, but the financial saving was vital.

 

[Taylortwocities]

Great news and well done.

I know many of us bang on about getting a qualified sparky in but from the nature of the questions and follow up posts it can be obvious that, for some folk, using a competent person will be the best and safest route for the poster.

What was the outcome of the smoke alarm query btw?

 

[dave93]

Thank you Wintonian, your story is an inspiration.

I'm a bit disappointed though that your only problem was about whether or not wired in smoke alarms should be fitted . . . I was hoping to learn more about what happened if things went wrong in this process (i.e. you get something wrong, they tell you to put it right, you have to pay for another test, or do they just fine you there and then!?)

I'm a bit confused about the process exactly - how did you know the actual electrical tester guy wanted you to fit smoke alarms before the test - did he come and visit you as you were carrying out the work (once, twice, regularly?), or did you submit detailed written plans (or an oral presentation) of what you proposed to do, or something else?

You seem to be encouraging others to use this route. Your local council sounded very helpful - I bet it varies alot between councils though (and I bet the electrical testers are more picky than they would be with their fellow electricians - pity all work isn't tested by somebody relatively independent from who did the work though). It would be interesting to hear the experiences of others. I can't believe yours took most of the cost of the test as it says in the regulations I think that you are responsible for the tests so why would the council help you out in this?

 

[soontobe]

it would be very interesting to hear from a few different LABCs as i dont think we have had any conflicting opinions from them. come to think of it i cant remember any opinions from them. as long as it gets done by friday!