I'm going to sream...

  • Thread starter attractivebrunette
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attractivebrunette

CHIMNEY LINING

I've been trying to find someone to install a gas hole in the wall fire for almost a year now. I'm now literally at the point where I'm ready to pull all my hair out in clumps and scream and bang my head on the wall!

I've had countless fire experts and fire-fitters and chimney sweeps and flue-liners in to site survey and every single one is telling me something different or trying to rip me off or messing me about. What the hell is wrong with these people??

Some are insisting I need to line my flue to give me a better 'draw' (the strength of the 'pull' that the flue uses to expel carbon monoxide). This seemed really strange as I did physics at school and can use common sense to understand that the wider the flue, the stronger the 'draw'. Thus lining a 10" square chimney with a 7" liner, will reduce the draw. Eventually I spoke to someone today who agreed with me.

He also said the only reason a chimney should be lined, is if it is unsafe. Yet an expert at Gazco / Stovax who sell the fire, insist that it must be connected to a 7" liner to stop the carbon monoxide falling back down the flue and shutting the fire off every few minutes (the fire has a built-in carbon monoxide detector that shuts the fire down if it detects a build-up).

So, how is it that the fire manufacturer can insist I fit a liner to stop the carbon monoxide 'falling back down' the flue, yet an expert fitter, tell me a liner will reduce the amount of draw up the flue?

So, come on, I need someone independent on here, a real gas fire and chimney expert to simply tell me the truth.

Is it the case that everyone is telling me I have to have my flue lined is doing so simply because they want to line it for me? But if that's the case, why on earth would the fire manufacturer insist the flue is lined, when they wouldn't benefit financially from me lining it?

Are they trying to get people to line their flues because the retailers and fitters who sell their fires have asked them to tell people to line their flues, simply so they make lots more money and get extra work?

I've honestly been trying to sort this out for a whole damn year and I simply can't get a straight answer from anyone.

The other problem is they all speak using terminology that the average consumer simply doesn't understand.

Can someone, please, please just give me a straight, honest answer?
 
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Deleted member 105431

Have you ever wondered if your the problem not the tradesman? You are paranoid about being ripped off always coming on here asking for trade prices etc. Any tradesman would run a mile from a scatty neurotic woman like you!
 
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If the manufacturers instructions for your particular model of fire say the appliance requires a flue liner, then it requires a flue liner, end of.

If the MIs dont say a liner is required and your flue is sound/good repair and passes flue test and inspections, then a liner is not required.

If the MIs dont say a liner is required and your flue is not sound/poor repair and fails a flue test and inspection, then you will need a liner.

Hope this helps.

If not, try a wig after hair extraction :)



;)
 
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attractivebrunette

clf-gas, why would a manufacturer say one of their gas fires need a flue liner attached to it, if the chimney is sound? No-one seems to be able to answer this question, even you.

I think I know what might be happening. The fire manufacturers and retailers and fitters are very close together. I'm sure the fitters and retailers are trying to create a 'culture' that whenever anyone has a gas fire, you have to get your flue lined, end of, even when it doesn't need to be lined. Remember that fitters love lining chimneys as it makes them lots of money.

So they're encouraging the manufacturers to claim in the brouchures that their fires need liners, even when they don't.
 
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dextrous

Your physics is a bit wrong I'm afraid. Having a wider vent will not create a bigger draw. Air flowing past the outside of the vent (outside the building) will create a decrease in pressure (due to a relative vacuum if you must know), and thus draw air or gases up through the flue. This is the same principle by which aircraft fly (and can be demonstrated easily by blowing over the top of a piece of flat paper, causing it to rise) - called the Bernoulli Effect if my O level memory serves me right. If you have a wider flue, then this may cause turbulence within it, some of which enabling heavier carbon monoxide to drop downwards, which is unsafe.

So, unfortunately for you, the professionals know what they are talking about on this one.
 
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Deleted member 105431

clf-gas, why would a manufacturer say one of their gas fires need a flue liner attached to it, if the chimney is sound? No-one seems to be able to answer this question, even you.

I think I know what might be happening. The fire manufacturers and retailers and fitters are very close together. I'm sure the fitters and retailers are trying to create a 'culture' that whenever anyone has a gas fire, you have to get your flue lined, end of, even when it doesn't need to be lined. Remember that fitters love lining chimneys as it makes them lots of money.

So they're encouraging the manufacturers to claim in the brouchures that their fires need liners, even when they don't.

yes that's right, they're colluding against you. :rolleyes: Have you been taking your medication?
 
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Look up "paranoid" next time you are near a dictionary.
Chances are you can't find anyone who wants to do the job because it becomes clear within minutes that you are a pain in the ass.
 
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attractivebrunette

dextrous, when you say 'vent' are you talking about the opening at the top of the flue? I'm talking about the size of the flue itself. I've just spoken to a chimney expert with 30 years experience who says that if I have a 10" square flue, then that will create a bigger 'draw' than a 7" diameter liner. Surely that sounds right? 10" is bigger than 7"?
 
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clf-gas, why would a manufacturer say one of their gas fires need a flue liner attached to it, if the chimney is sound? No-one seems to be able to answer this question, even you.

I can answer this question, at length with a copious amount of technical terminology, or in short layman/woman terms. Though I do feel this is not needed as you pointed out yourself the reasons.

Yet an expert at Gazco / Stovax who sell the fire, insist that it must be connected to a 7" liner to stop the carbon monoxide falling back down the flue and shutting the fire off every few minutes (the fire has a built-in carbon monoxide detector that shuts the fire down if it detects a build-up).


When installing ANY gas appliance, Manufacturers instructions take presidence.

What sort of prices are you being quoted, and are they from recomendations.
 
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dextrous

dextrous, when you say 'vent' are you talking about the opening at the top of the flue? I'm talking about the size of the flue itself. I've just spoken to a chimney expert with 30 years experience who says that if I have a 10" square flue, then that will create a bigger 'draw' than a 7" diameter liner. Surely that sounds right? 10" is bigger than 7"?

He may well be experienced, but so are the other installers, so it's one word against the other.

However, with regard to coming to terms with the physics of it, if you had a vacuum cleaner with say a 4" diameter hose, it would need a much more powerful engine to operate it that is needed for a 1.5" hose to create the same effectiveness of suction. Thus, conversely, for example, a windspeed of 10mph over the flue opening will not create as much draw through a wider opening compared to a narrow opening. Now, although there is a natural conclusion that would imply that the 7" opening could be narrower still, you have to take into account the actual volume of gases that need to be drawn.

Also, the idea of just having the opening wider that the rest of the chimney "hole" is flawed since, as I said earlier, it would enable turbulance and downdraughts of toxic gases to ensue.

I can understand your feeling of the manufacturers being in cahoots with installers and each other, but I feel that you are in error in this instance. One of the other reasons for stipulating a flue liner as necessary is the safety aspect. Over the years, gases created by coal and wood fires, coupled with exposure to the elements will have weakened the mortar within the chimney; as well as other possible hairline cracks due to natural movement. If the only thing being burnt was still coal/timber, then any escaping (through the brickwork and possibly into rooms) would smell and be less dangerous chemically anyway. However, since carbon dioxide and monoxide are not nasally detectable, and are far more toxic, the instance of gases leaking into a room (especially for example a bedroom) would be potentially life threatening.
 
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attractivebrunette

Ok, dextrous we seem to be (slowly) getting there.

I understand what you mean now about how, a 10" unlined chimney, might not draw as much as one with a 7" liner (because a 10" flue would need stronger winds because there is more 'air' in the 10" that needs to be 'drawn' up). But, I assume, if the wind was strong enough this wouldn't be a problem? Tell me if I'm wrong.

So does that mean that if a large gas burner is installed, would a 10" flue or a 7" liner be best? (assuming the flue was safe and sound)
 
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Deleted member 105431

Ok, dextrous we seem to be (slowly) getting there.

I understand what you mean now about how, a 10" unlined chimney, might not draw as much as one with a 7" liner (because a 10" flue would need stronger winds because there is more 'air' in the 10" that needs to be 'drawn' up). But, I assume, if the wind was strong enough this wouldn't be a problem? Tell me if I'm wrong.

So does that mean that if a large gas burner is installed, would a 10" flue or a 7" liner be best? (assuming the flue was safe and sound)

seeing as you obviously know better that the professionals why not fit the fire yourself? :rolleyes:
 
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Yet an expert at Gazco / Stovax who sell the fire, insist that it must be connected to a 7" liner................................


.............Can someone, please, please just give me a straight, honest answer?
You mean, an answer that's different from what the manufacturer says you must do :confused:

The manufacturers of my car say it must run on Unleaded Petrol. What do I have to do to find someone who will tell me I can fill it with diesel?
 
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dextrous

Ok, dextrous we seem to be (slowly) getting there.

I understand what you mean now about how, a 10" unlined chimney, might not draw as much as one with a 7" liner (because a 10" flue would need stronger winds because there is more 'air' in the 10" that needs to be 'drawn' up). But, I assume, if the wind was strong enough this wouldn't be a problem? Tell me if I'm wrong.
True, but since a permanent strong wind cannot be guaranteed 24/7, there is an optimum size, which we can only assume has been calculated as 7" for this size of appliance
So does that mean that if a large gas burner is installed, would a 10" flue or a 7" liner be best? (assuming the flue was safe and sound)
Quite possibly, but the manufacturers and designers will have done the relevant calculations based on the appliances requirements. After all, a small gas fire isn't likely to require a power station cooling tower!
 
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You mean, an answer that's different from what the manufacturer says you must do :confused:

The manufacturers of my car say it must run on Unleaded Petrol. What do I have to do to find someone who will tell me I can fill it with diesel?

Post a request at the forum.

Dear John,

You can fill up your car with diesel if you want to. It is your car. It is also your money that you spend, so you can choose to buy diesel instead of unleaded petrol if you want to.
If you do decide to stick diesel in your car, you will find very helpful people posting at Car Repairs / Maintenance section of the forum.

Regards,

Handsomebaldy
 

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