Invoice question

[newbiestarter10]

Hi
I have recently had a plumber in and he has now finished my job.
When he came around to give me a quote - he told me it would be 3 days labour (200 a day) and roughly 900 in parts. I found out that some of the parts he was supplying were over 4 times the price that I have found them for so i told him not to buy those bits and I'd supply them.

I have now asked him for an invoice and for a full breakdown on prices/parts. He has refused to do so. He says the reason for this is that he has already worked it out for his quote. so he will subtract the cost of the bits that he would have used had he supplied them from his original quote and add on any extra bits that he needed for the job and provide me with a total.

Surely, if he is sending me an invoice, and he has a breakdown of parts = £x and labour = £y - then i am within my rights to ask for a breakdown as to what the parts are that he is charging me for - and how much each one is...

Am i correct? or are there no rules/regulations over this matter....

 

[seco services]

you can demand a breakdown of each part supplied as each part will be covered by a manufactorers guarentee so when part fails you got proof it was fitted and when.
i always itemise parts and prices + my % and keep a copy then it saves either of us getting conned.

 

[Softus]

Both you and your contractor seem to have a woolly understanding of what constitutes a quotation.

A quotation is a fixed price that can form the basis of a binding contract. If you varied the contract so that you supplied some of the parts for which he quoted, but didn't agree a new price, then he's left with the freedom to charge what is fair and reasonable.

If he gives you an invoice that isn't suspiciously at variance with the original price/estimate/quotation, then you're legally obliged to pay it.

 

[sterod1971]

I generally provide invoices with a break down of parts and labour. I dont say what my mark up is, (Do Tesco tell you how much they actually pay for the loaf of bread they charge you over a quid for) Youve got to remember that we are try ing to make a living and the tax man would look at us as if we were mad if we didnt have a mark up! That being said a 400% mark up is taking the P***!

Some guys dont mark up by much and load the labour, others mark up on parts more so the labour look more reasonable. Its swings and roundabouts!

I recently had a job requiring a new towel rail. The customer said he'd source the towel rail from a well known on-line shop. He paid whatever it was and told me he'd got a bargain...........and was annoyed when I told him how much cheaper it would have been if Id sourced it (and thats including my mark up!)
And to put the tin hat on it, when it arrived it was damaged and couldnt be fitted so he had to pay me for my wasted time!

 

[Softus]

Do Tesco tell you how much they actually pay for the loaf of bread they charge you over a quid for

That's a ridiculous comparison - Tesco's core business is retail, so we all know that we're paying them more than they're paying their suppliers. Also, punters buying bread direct from bread manufacturers is a non-starter, whereas plumbing customers can buy the same products that plumbers buy, and at (mostly) the same discounted prices.

the tax man would look at us as if we were mad if we didnt have a mark up!

The idea that the Inland Revenue has a view on whether or not you make a profit on materials is nearly insane.

I recently had a job requiring a new towel rail. The customer said he'd source the towel rail from a well known on-line shop. He paid whatever it was and told me he'd got a bargain...........and was annoyed when I told him how much cheaper it would have been if Id sourced it (and thats including my mark up!)
And to put the tin hat on it, when it arrived it was damaged and couldnt be fitted so he had to pay me for my wasted time!

That experience alone is reason enough to decline jobs where the customer buys stuff 'cheaply' over the Internet.

 

[sterod1971]

Thankyou for the welcome Softus, clearly Im ridiculous and insane, a view shared by many of my friends im sure!
Firstly, the comparison is not ridiculous, it is a valid comparison, I accept your point that Tescos core business is retail and as a self employed person one provides a service. But Im not self employed. I own and run a very sucessful solar installation company along side the gas/plumbing business and I am in business for one purpose. To make a profit.

You clearly have no real understanding of how the inland revenue looks at corporate business, I can only assume you are self employed (in which case the rules are slightly different) or a punter whos been ripped off by unscrupulous trades people.
If one does not add a mark up, how can one even attempt to cover the overheads a business (any business) must have in order to trade. Lets break it down
1. VAN (S)
2 TOOLS
3.INSURANCES (PUBLIC, EMPLOYER, ROAD, indemnity ETC)
4.advertising
5.WAGES.
6.EMPLOYEE benifits
6.proffesional FEES (CORGI, IPHE, ETC)
7.ACCOUNTANTS (A NECESSARY EVIL)
8.PREMISES RENTS/RATES
As for customers being able to go to retailers and buy goods for the same discounts we pay, well I suggest you find a better supplier! I have been in business in one form or another for many years and have built a generous discount with the suppliers I use. I know for a fact that these discounts are more than the average punter would get by walking in off the street. As a bulk buyer, I can and do, often go straight to the manufctures and dictate terms, Much like the supermarkets do. I also negotiate discounts from resellers where I am unable to buy direct.

Yes these people can go to wicks or b&q etc, but they get what they pay for!

If one is VAT registered, one must provide an invoice with a net figure as well as a gross. one must also have a unique invoice numbering system.

If one is not vat registered, then it is a professional courtesy and good manners to give a customer a receipt. How much information is included is the personal choice of the tradesperson concerned.

A quotation is the price the customer pays if accepting the quotation, unlike an estimate, which is a ball park figure.

The mark up a tradesperson decides to add is again, their discsion. That being said, anyone who makes a mark up of 400% deserves to get questioned by the customer!

I found your comments unnecessarily derogatory and unfriendly. As a newbi on this forum I didn't expect such hostility.

One final word, I see from your post record that you obviously have too much time on your hands in front of the PC .One hopes you are not abusing an employer's trust and surfing while at work.

 

[sterod1971]

Oh, and Softus, youve obviously not got any traditional bakers on your local high street. Baker=bread manufacturer .

 

[breezer]

sterod1971, welcome to the forums.
Softus does have a daytime job, its called "chief winder upper", at which he is very good. (siren sounds, signaling incoming sarcastic reply from softus) try to do what most of us do, (most of the time) ignore him.

oh and there is also an

button which allows you to add / amend a post

 

[Softus]

sterod1971, I had no idea that you were new to the forum, so if you regarded my post as a welcome (or otherwise) then you misread my intention.

None of my comments was personal, whereas you've made many personal comments in response. I can happily ignore those. You've been sarcastic, and made assumptions based on pure supposition, neither of which sits well with me, but if you want some latitude as a newbie, and if you want me to be the one giving it, then please take it that I've done so.

Getting back the point, you implied that it's essential to mark up materials in order to cover overheads - this is simply untrue. I have no idea why you think that being a "corporate" business (whatever you think that means) gives you the monopoly on understanding what overheads are.

You also implied that it's essential to mark up materials in order to make a reasonable profit - this is also untrue.
__________________________

Edited section

As for discounts, can you buy one of these for less than £2.99?

Or one of these for less than £8.99?

End of edited section
__________________________

The Tesco analogy was, and is, fallacious, as evidenced by the fact that you muddied the waters with talk of independent bakers who do not supply Tesco.

If you have a point then by all means do make it, but have a go at doing it based on your own experience, not by making wild and inaccurate assumptions about what you think mine might be, and without judging the motivation and occupation of someone who's doing no more than posting on the same forum as you.

 

[Deluks]

Back to the original question. Yes you are within your rights to ask for a breakdown, as equally the tradesman is within is rights to tell you to "bog off, it's this much, you can like it or lump it"

...but if you only query it after the work is done then you come across as an awkward customer. If the quote says £1000 for a new tap washer and you accept the quote, then that's what you've gotta pay.

Truth is, he probably didnt want to tell you what the stuff actually costs as he probably was taking the pish.

Unfortunately some trades think it's ok to charge loads more for materials than they get them for to bump up their winnings, erm sorry I mean earnings.


A certain amount of markup is reasonable, as they are running trade accounts with suppliers, and running around getting the stuff/making phone calls. But it should be made clear what this markup is,

"Materials supplied at cost + 10%"

...I've seen on invoices, and I think that's perfectly fair and clear.[/i]

 

[grrinc]

A while back, a few plumbers mecrchants down here in Portsmouth were giving the same trade price to retail as they were trade.

I had a customer who tried to 'mark my cards' by telling me he could get trade prices himself. I told him that perhaps he ought to supply the parts and be prepared to supply additional parts as and when we need them.

I also reminded him that any guarantee issues on installation materials would have to be chased up by him rather than me.

Amazingly, he still wanted to supply the parts and took 3 days off work to undertake this task. He also went against my advice and supplied Wickes own brand 'universal' tile and grout adhesive. He also ended up supplying push fit waste pipe, and hinted that I could reduce my installation cost due to the saved time.

OP - I know this doesnt answer your question, and four times the cost of parts seems too much. But there are sometimes other angles to consider.

 

[sterod1971]

Softus...........I think we should agree to respect our differing opinions and leave it there.
As for being sarcastic...well I felt agreived at your comments regarding the tesco analogy!
As for a mark up. I choose not to inform customers what my mark up is but... I always tell customers that they are free to supply the materiels themselves. Stressing that I will not be held responcible for sub-standard materials and that any losses will be born by them..not me! As I always guarantee my companies workmanship, and any materials we supply, if the part develops a fault within the guarantee period we replace at no cost to the customer and have to recover our losses for time, parts etc from the supplier/manufacturer. which is sometimes difficult and costly in its self. A small mark up is reasonable and the majority of customers dont mind this, even expect it.

Again I stress that a 400% mark up is taking the p*ss!

I can source both parts in your post for less than you have them priced at.
Its called buying power!

 

[jonseyrs]

__________________________

Edited section

As for discounts, can you buy one of these for less than £2.99?

I can

Or one of these for less than £8.99?

I can also
End of edited section
__________________________

 

[Softus]

Softus...........I think we should agree to respect our differing opinions and leave it there.

Buy you haven't left it there.

I can source both parts in your post for less than you have them priced at.
Its called buying power!

No, it's actually called a sucker punch, and you fell for it.

 

[godsoftandjoearedull]

No, it's actually called a sucker punch, and you fell for it.

Ever the modest, self-depreciating, diplomat, Softus carried on in his quest to make friends and influence people.