Is replacing MCB (from 16A to 32A) on cooker circuit notifiable work

[chris1982]

Recently we had a certified electrician in to hard-wire an induction hob. Part of the work was to replace the MCB on the board with a 32A one; previously there was a 16A MCB (since there was a gas cooker).

After his (hefty) bill, I asked the electrician whether we would receive any paperwork, but he said no since it was an existing circuit. Is that right? I guess I am asking what is the definition of an existing circuit. The moment the old MCB gets taken out, to me there is no circuit (but only disconnected cables), but does fitting the new MCB constitute a new circuit?

On a different note, as he says it was like-for-like change, he left the board as it was, with the MCB on the non-RCD side.

 

[Jadele]

I thought any new work in a kitchen had to go on RCD. Also I would have thought that a minor works cert would be issued

 

[omega015]

One question that you should find out (unless you know) is what is the size of the cable on that circuit (2.5mm / 4mm etc..)? is it radial or ring? Just because it has a higher rating MCB doesn't mean the cable can handle it and the original 16A might of been the current limit of that cable/circuit.

 

[JohnW2]

I thought any new work in a kitchen had to go on RCD.

No, there is nothing special about a kitchen. New sockets, or new buried cables would (as would be the case anywhere) require RCD protection, but that's all.

Also I would have thought that a minor works cert would be issued

Indeed - some certificate should be issued for any electrical work - either a minor works cert or an EIC, as appropriate.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Recently we had a certified electrician in to hard-wire an induction hob. Part of the work was to replace the MCB on the board with a 32A one; previously there was a 16A MCB (since there was a gas cooker).

As has been asked, did he confirm that the cable was adequate for a 32A MCB (and the load of the induction hob)?

After his (hefty) bill, I asked the electrician whether we would receive any paperwork, but he said no since it was an existing circuit. Is that right?

That is nonsense. Any electrical work, whether notifiable or not, should result in a certificate - either a Minor Works one or an "EIC" (Electrical Installation Certificate)

I guess I am asking what is the definition of an existing circuit. The moment the old MCB gets taken out, to me there is no circuit (but only disconnected cables), but does fitting the new MCB constitute a new circuit? On a different note, as he says it was like-for-like change, he left the board as it was, with the MCB on the non-RCD side.

You're now presumably talking about 'notifiability', and there is room for debate here as to whether or not it is a 'new circuit'. If it is using the original cable, I would personally probably say that it wasn't, but I can see the contrary argument. The Building Regs (i.e. 'the law') are miserably inadequate in defining (rather, not defining) a "new circuit". However, as above, lack of notifiability would not mean that a certificate was not required.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Risteard]

Indeed - some certificate should be issued for any electrical work

Where the circuit has been modified (or is new) then that is true. Accessory replacement does not inherently require certification, although it is permissible. (I am not suggesting that replacing a circuit breaker amounts to like-for-like accessory replacement, however. To my mind a new circuit has been created.)

 

[JohnW2]

Where the circuit has been modified (or is new) then that is true. Accessory replacement does not inherently require certification, although it is permissible.

Are you implying that you would not undertake any testing as part of an 'accessory replacement' - or, alternatively, if you would test, where would you document the results of those tests?

Kind Regards, John

 

[Risteard]

Are you implying that you would not undertake any testing as part of an 'accessory replacement' - or, alternatively, if you would test, where would you document the results of those tests?

Kind Regards, John

No, I never suggested that appropriate inspection, testing and verification should not take place. I simply stated that certification is not mandated for such work.

 

[JohnW2]

No, I never suggested that appropriate inspection, testing and verification should not take place. I simply stated that certification is not mandated for such work.

So where would you document the test results, for provision to the customer?

Of course, BS7671 does not "mandate" anything, and the Building Regs do not "mandate" anything specific in relation to electrical work.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Dammit - replied instead of edited ... again!!Deleted.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I asked the electrician whether we would receive any paperwork, but he said no since it was an existing circuit.

So he did not test the loop impedance of the circuit to check that it was OK for a 32A breaker?

(See here for more info on that topic: //www.diynot.com/wiki/Electrics:MCB2 )

 

[Risteard]

So where would you document the test results, for provision to the customer?

There is no requirement to document them once you have determined that ADS will operate as intended. (Like I stated, certification is not required for it.) But many might choose to record them on the invoice due to the Latin phrase Tony Cable often cites: "rectum protectum".

 

[JohnW2]

There is no requirement to document them once you have determined that ADS will operate as intended. (Like I stated, certification is not required for it.)

I'm not talking about "requirements" - as I said, there is no mandatory "requirement" for any documentation, certificates or otherwise (other than compliance certs in the case of notifiable work undertaken by a self-certifying electrician).

What I am saying is that I feel that someone who has paid for work (including tests) to be undertaken can reasonably expect to be provided with documentation of the work which includes results of those tests. Whether or not that documentation takes the form of a BS7671-style 'certificate' is really neither here nor there, but I would personally regard it as very unprofessional to undertake work and then not provide documentation (including test results, if applicable) in some format, whether one calls it 'a certificate' or not.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Risteard]

I'm not talking about "requirements" - as I said, there is no mandatory "requirement" for any documentation, certificates or otherwise (other than compliance certs in the case of notifiable work undertaken by a self-certifying electrician).

What I am saying is that I feel that someone who has paid for work (including tests) to be undertaken can reasonably expect to be provided with documentation of the work which includes results of those tests. Whether or not that documentation takes the form of a BS7671-style 'certificate' is really neither here nor there, but I would personally regard it as very unprofessional to undertake work and then not provide documentation (including test results, if applicable) in some format, whether one calls it 'a certificate' or not.

Kind Regards, John

I don't agree. I think it is ludicrously over-the-top to expect certificates for replacing a light switch which the rocker popped out of unless specifically asked for such by the client. It may not be unreasonable for them to expect to pay a slightly greater fee for the production of such a certificate either.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Assuming that some testing was done, e.g. with the switch replacement example that would be at least functional testing, should probably include polarity, and if it's a metal switch definitely cpc continuity, then even if no "certificate" is provided, at the very least the invoice should document what was done.