Junction box for moving socket

[morqthana]

So - are you saying a cable cannot be connected to a termination therefore the regulations do not make sense?

You are fond of asking stupid questions. Almost a speciality for you it seems.

It would be good if I could ask you where I wrote anything which could be construed as "a cable cannot be connected to a termination therefore the regulations do not make sense", but I fear that you aren't into logic at the moment.

Yes, it obviously was and still is intended for that purpose even if it is not used as such at the moment.

But if you remove a socket and replace it with a junction box what current-using equipment is intended to be connected to that junction box?

But a socket is not current-using-equipment so presumably if the socket is not used then it cannot be a point either.

You mean that if a socket is left in situ, but then obscured by a radiator, it can no longer be intended for the connection of equipment?

Good point.

But is it a moot one?

522.6.202 talks about cables connected to points, accessories, and switchgear. What's the definition of "accessory"?

But that is the definition from the regulations.

No, it isn't, assuming your quote was correct.

If it was, then just as I said, if it is not intended for the connection of current-using equipment then it is not a "point".

Interesting aside - my parents used to call sockets "points".

Again - are you saying the regulations regarding this make no sense?

No.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Oh, I can't be bothered.

You seem to be having similar trouble with Jurrassicspark; perhaps you're the problem.

 

[morqthana]

The only problem I have is trying to explain things here to people who can't read properly.

 

[morqthana]

You see the thing is this is a case of "fresh eyes". There may be a proper term for it, but basically it is common, in many fields, for people who have been following instructions or rules or whatever to see what they think is there, not necessarily what is there, particularly if early on they misinterpreted something, or the person who taught them got it wrong, and so on.

So what I'm doing is looking at it with no baggage, and looking at what is actually there in black and white

Pete01's drawing

View attachment 385135

and flameport's comment

To create a zone, the wiring has to be connected to the accessory. A blank plate has no connections for wiring so doesn't create any zones.

seem to outline the situation.


So what's there in black and white?

Thanks to https://engx.theiet.org/f/wiring-and-regulations/30881/surface-mounted-cable---guidance for saving me some typing:

522.6.202 A cable installed in a wall or partition at a depth of less than 50 mm from a surface of the wall or partition shall:

• be installed in a zone within 150 mm from the top of the wall or partition or within 150 mm of an angle formed by two adjoining walls or partitions. Where the cable is connected to a point, accessory or switchgear on any surface of the wall or partition, the cable may be installed in a zone either horizontally or vertically, to the point, accessory or switchgear. Where the location of the accessory, point or switchgear can be determined from the reverse side, a zone formed on one side of a wall of 100 mm thickness or less or partition of 100 mm thickness or less extends to the reverse side, or
• comply with Regulation 522.6.204.

The key part is

"Where the cable is connected to a point, accessory or switchgear on any surface of the wall or partition..."

"point" had its definition quoted above, and whatever may count as a "point", a junction box does not, as a junction box is not intended for the connection of current-using equipment.

"accessory"- "a device, other than current-using equipment, associated with such equipment or with the wiring of an installation." So a pretty wide definition, which could encompass a junction box.

"switchgear" seems pretty obvious. And superfluous because of "accessory". But not in conflict.

"on the surface". A socket is on the surface. A light switch is on the surface. A fused spur is on the surface.

A junction box could be viewed as an accessory, but one behind a blanking plate is not on the surface. A blanking pate could be viewed as an accessory, but there are no cables connected to it.

A junction box behind a blanking plate fails every test. It's not a point, it's not switchgear, it's not on the surface of the wall, and the blanking plate itself has no cables connected to it.

To create a zone, the wiring has to be connected to the accessory. A blank plate has no connections for wiring so doesn't create any zones.

is correct.

Not sure if I would agree with that, it has been the standard way for years

An example of what I said at the start about people only seeing what they've always believed.

Also - after a socket has been removed and where two cables are connected, would that not still be a 'point'?

No.