Kingfisher air consumption spec.

[Softus]

Time for me to consult the RGIs here, if you don't mind.

In a nutshell, an existing customer would like me to find out whether or not the air inlet to his boiler is adequate. I've told him that I can't advise, but he's an old friend and he wants to know whether or not an RGI would condemn it on sight.

So, it's a floor-standing Kingfisher, vintage unknown, minimum age about 15 years, output described as "about 127 Btu".

I can't imagine a simpler appliance - basically a gas valve, a burner, and a heat exchanger. It has what a naive person might call a case, but none of the panels are friends with each other.

The boiler room has no outside walls, and it appears that someone has provided air through 2 off 3" circular drainpipe, but we couldn't find the other end of the pipes anywhere outside (the house is immense, with about 49 different aspects, pitches, gables, abutments, parapets etc.).

Question (at last): can anyone tell me how to determine the size, and maximum distance to boiler, of a pipe (or multiple pipes) used to supply air to this boiler in an enclosed room?

 

[Agile]

So, it's a floor-standing Kingfisher, vintage unknown, minimum age about 15 years, output described as "about 127 Btu".

127 BTU is about the power of a small light bulb !!!

I do not give advice on gas safety to anyone who is not CORGi registered.

In view of the safety aspects I would advise that he gets a properly qualified person to inspect and advise.

Tony

 

[Softus]

127 BTU is about the power of a small light bulb

Very clever - you know that I missed out a 'k'.

I do not give advice on gas safety to anyone who is not CORGi registered.

Seriously, did you post this just to tell me something I already know, which is that you have nothing to say?

In view of the safety aspects I would advise that he gets a properly qualified person to inspect and advise.

1. I've already told him that.
2. Thank the Lord that you're not advising him.
3. Once I find out the answer, and I will find out, with or without your help, he will be able to rectify the installation before calling an RGI, so that he, in his words, avoids the risk of having the installation condemned and boiler turned off and reported.

 

[Gasman1015]

Requires high level (635cm²) and low level (1270cm²) vents if direct to outside air, ducts should be as short and straight as possible and preferably accessible for internal inspection along the entire length.

The situation from your description would mean that the installation would be classified as "At Risk", if the boiler is operating correctly and should be made safe until the ventilation is corrected. If the boiler has any signs of incomplete combustion or spillage, then the classification would be "Immediately Dangerous", either way the installation should not be used.

 

[Softus]

Requires high level (635cm²) and low level (1270cm²) vents if direct to outside air, ducts should be as short and straight as possible and preferably accessible for internal inspection along the entire length.

Thanks for your reply, Gasman1015. I'll pass this information on.

The situation from your description would mean that the installation would be classified as "At Risk", if the boiler is operating correctly and should be made safe until the ventilation is corrected.

Pragmatically, I think my customer has suspected/worried for some time that the installation is faulty, which is why he never shuts the door to the boiler room. I suggested out that if there's no supply of fresh air to the inside of the house then it doesn't make any difference, but then I don't know what I'm talking about.

If the boiler cupboard door were removed, what are the requirements for air intake to the room containing the boiler cupboard?

If the boiler has any signs of incomplete combustion or spillage, then the classification would be "Immediately Dangerous", either way the installation should not be used.

The guy has become so worried that he has CO detectors falling out of his ar5e, but what are the signs that I tell him to be aware of?

 

[ChrisR]

Too late to go into figures but at the moment, as long as there's SOME vent, then it's only Not to Current Standard. If less than 90% it's going to be AR, but that hasn't come in yet.
This assumes it isn't "spilling", etc. To get an vague idea about that, shut yourself in the boiler room (joke, usually) and see with a smoke match if the flue is pulling. Full checks use smoke bombs.
Time for bed - gas exam tomorrow!

First danger sign is yellowish flames.

 

[Softus]

Thanks Chris.

Also apologies for forgetting some potentially reassuring information - the gas valve was replaced three years ago, by an RGI who then serviced the appliance. It would be disappointing if that person hadn't verified the air supply and flue condition at the time.

Notwithstanding that, I understand that regulations change over time, and that isn't to current standard.

 

[Gasman1015]

Requires high level (186cm²) and low level (370cm²)

.

Just realised my calculations were wrong, others based on 127kw.....

 

[Softus]

Phew! I was trying to word an Email telling him he needs one 10"x10" vent and another 14"x14".

 

[Gasman1015]

Those ventilation sizes would be doubled if the air was provided from another room and the room vented direct to outside air, provided that the room is neither a bedroom or bathroom.

 

[Softus]

Fully understood. Thanks once again.

 

[ollski]

Too late to go into figures but at the moment, as long as there's SOME vent, then it's only Not to Current Standard. If less than 90% it's going to be AR, but that hasn't come in yet.
Time for bed - gas exam tomorrow!

Might just need a little brush up on this bit chris
40 - 89% currently ncs will be AR in 2008
under 40% currently AR

If the boiler room is considered a compartment ie too small to be a living space anything less than 90% is AR

Presume it is a CF100
Air from room:
hi 335 cm2
Lo 670cm2

Air from outside:
Hi 168cm2
Lo 335 cm2

Direct room vent:
139cm2

 

[Softus]

ollski - I'm not familiar with some of your terminology.

40 - 89% currently ncs will be AR in 2008
under 40% currently AR

If the boiler room is considered a compartment ie too small to be a living space anything less than 90% is AR

AR?

Air from room:
hi 335 cm2
Lo 670cm2

Does this apply if there is no vent into the room (i.e. the 'room being the living space)?

Air from outside:
Hi 168cm2
Lo 335 cm2

And does this apply if there is?

Direct room vent:
139cm2

And does this apply if there is a 133mm diameter duct leading from the outside air?

 

[giblets]

First danger sign is yellowish flames.

Would an earlier danger sign not be "flame lift-off" from the burner as the flames try & find more oxygen?

 

[Softus]

Thanks giblets (I sentence I didn't anticipate ever having to use).

Not being an utter fool, I had a look at the flames while I was visiting (I didn't post this earlier as it didn't seem relevant to my first question).

The flames I could see where blue and not lifting off. There was a little yellowness elsewhere, which I pointed out, but I couldn't get my head down far enough in the floor recess to see the entire burner. The front cover was awry, but I didn't want to move it further because I wanted to be able to say that I hadn't touched the appliance at all. I expected to be finding that the vent wasn't adequate anyway, so didn't get a mirror or camera, but did advise that not having it serviced wasn't wise. But that's where we came in...