Larger rear extension - Neighbour Consultation

[Sid1968]

Still going full planning on a 6 metre rear extension on a semi is very risky unless you a evidence of special circumstances ie disibility issues. 4 metres should fly through.

The 45 degree is a guide used by local planners to measure the impact of sunlight and daylight to neighbouring properties.

45 degree rule is measured from the centre point of nearest neighbours window. Draw a 45 degree line towards the proposed extension if the line touches the proposed extension then normally considered unacceptable but if the line clears the extension then normally acceptable

 

[Footsoldier888]

Personally I see a lower 6m extension being better than one of these lean to jobs that start almost 4m at the house. Especially in the context of this long garden.

I don't think the 45 degree line will count for too much because where it will hit you could extend anyway. Plus the council might say the side windows might mitigate any loss of outlook.

If your neighbour doesn't like brick have you suggested some cedar cladding??? I think the council has to factor in the likelihood the next door house will also be extended in the future.

I can understand next door's objection but your task is to establish if it is valid in planning policy. It needs to tick all the boxes regarding the light impact.

 

[cdbe]

From my limited knowledge I believe the 45 degree "rule" is more of a recommendation. There is no mention of it in my councils policy (but TBH there doesn't seem to be much of anything). In my case I'm sure even 3m would breach it anyway.

I think my neighbour is against extensions regardless of the material (I reckon with a taller fence and a 200mm fascia the amount of visible brick on that elevation will be about 600mm at the house and 450mm at the end as the fence steps up the garden - he still described this as a "huge brick wall"). I'm assuming his objection will prompt a visit from the planning officer and hopefully some sort of useful discussion about my options.

In the description I've included details of my conversations with the neighbour where (after informing me that he is probably planning to move) he agreed that a new owner would almost certainly extend - these are good sized houses but with an old fashioned internal layout, tiny kitchens, no downstairs WC or utility etc and most of those sold on the street in the past 5 years have been extended. If this is something the council has to consider the information is there.

I've just checked the council's website and seen that a house further up has recently been allowed out 4m GF up to the boundary plus 4m upstairs (about 3m away from the boundary) which is a significant change to what's previously got through so I'll have to look into that a bit more (we do need another bedroom but I was planning to go into the loft for that).

 

[Footsoldier888]

Well you can hardly blame them for not wanting change, it's very common for neighbours to react like this. They are entiltled to after all, this is why we have the planning system.

I'm sure it will all calm down after it is done.

 

[cdbe]

Well the council refused permission, by email at 4.55pm on day 42!

"....by reason of its massing, height and close proximity to the common boundary.... would represent an overshadowing and overbearing form of development which would restrict the amount of outlook and be seriously detrimental to the residential amenity enjoyed by the occupiers of number xxx......".

Needless to say we are disappointed by this and wonder if we have any grounds to appeal - on the grounds that we disagree with the assessment of the impact (which was reached without any site inspection by the council, if that's relevant) and that our fall back proposal (3m PD extension and large adjacent garden structure) would have a far greater impact?

At the same time we are considering a planning application for a combined ground/part first floor rear extension (identical to a near neighbour's recently approved proposal) which comes out 3.5 - 4m (stepped, presumably due to 45 degree rule).

If it's worth appealing should we try and do things in some sort of order? eg get planning as above and/or LDC for 3m extension plus garden room etc and then appeal on the basis that the fall back is as bad or worse?

My Google research of the appeals system suggests that it takes no notice of what else you say you'll do, unless you have approved planning or an LDC to confirm that you can.

My thoughts are:
Planning permission first (before I start with the big garden structures).
LDC second,
appeal third.

Advice/suggestions gratefully received.

 

[JP_]

I think all you can do is come up with another pla, and in the details of that plan, clearly address why it will not affect overshadowing and overbearing or
restrict the amount of outlook and be seriously detrimental to the residential amenity enjoyed by the occupiers of number....

maybe an L shape to keep the 45 degree view from the centre of their window free.
are you doing a side extension too? Looks like an additional side bit on the first drawing - could you shift the whole rear part to the right?

A quick MS Paint job... but something like this

 

[Notch7]

I though the planners sometimes agreed the 45 degree rule also could be elevated at 20 degrees, so if you were at the neighbours window and looked at 45 degrees and then 20 degrees up, the proposed extension had to be below.

 

[cdbe]

Thanks, unfortunately the side extension (lean to through garage) is already built and we need to maintain vehicular access to the back garden so can't shift it over.
We're preparing to submit a planning application now as I think we need to engage with the council, I've brought out a 45 degree line from the neighbours window which gives nearly 4m, beyond this stepping in the corner by a metre would bring us out to 5m within the 45 degrees. It's a starting point for negotiation at least!

Regarding appealing the original refusal, my problem is that given the overall setting and other potential options I don't think it's particularly overbearing etc and did point this out in my PD description - I now believe that the planning officer probably didn't look at this but on receiving my neighbours objection, simply applied the council's planning policy to it and rejected it because it's longer than they allow, so maybe an appeal would consider it differently, particularly if they visited the site and saw evidence of our other options.

 

[Footsoldier888]

WHAT!!!!!! Well that made me spit my cornflakes all over my laptop. Fees are tight enough as it is, now we're expected to do it for free? I hope that trend doesn't catch on down here.

I hope your computer survived Wessex . It is a sort of local practice where I am, as a number of local designers work in the modular building industry and do drawings as a sideline, it seems to be a long standing custom where they offer half the money back on a refusal.

cdbe I am sure there is a solution to all this but it is regrettable you let the application go through to refusal when you might have been able to withdraw and re-submit. A different plan and roofing configuration would I'm sure have had a different outcome.

I suggest you employ a designer with your next application.

 

[cdbe]

Thanks Footsoldier, I applied (free of charge) in accordance with the PD larger rear extension rules; the council did not give me an option to discuss/withdraw/modify etc. In attempting to appease my neighbour I comprised the design almost to the point where it became not the extension we wanted . Given that PD states that the materials and roof plan etc must match the existing there is no option for sympathetic cladding, flat roof design etc. I'm sure if we comprised on length and setback further from the boundary we could do something but then it brings it back to what we'll likely achieve under planning (which would also give the chance of including a small first floor bedroom and save me having to do a technically difficult loft conversion).
Without going into too much detail, if we can't have the 6m room we want in a new larger extension we'll achieve it with a smaller extension by knocking through into the main house where the old kitchen and (4m deep) dining room are (which, as they would have had no natural light, were destined to become office/utility space). We will subsequently replace this lost area with a large PD garden structure, directly adjacent to the boundary and whatever extension we end up with.
The neighbours will gain nothing. My wife is fuming and if she gets her way their side of the garden room will be clad in some (non flammable of course) rusty corrugated tin roofing sheets we have lying around, set off by a flat roof full of builder's buckets (AKA planters) full of weeds!

Anyway, we'll either calm down or be on an up and coming episode of Neighbours from Hell!

 

[Footsoldier888]

I know this looks like hindsight but on page one tony1851 clearly warned that this would be a likely outcome for you.

I am just surprised you went ahead with the NCS application, which is designed to cater for 'in the same style' applications with no objection from the neighbour. As the neighbour was highly likely to object (with justification in many people's opinion here) I am just surprised you didn't turn to a full application in order to overcome these issues.

I don't know if an NCS application could have been withdrawn if you believed a refusal was coming but on a full application this is what happens I believe, you can get some feedback in terms of policy etc. and then act accordingly.

I don't mean to come over as rude but it isn't your neighbour's fault you got the refusal if they had given you reason to believe that they were going to object before you put the application in.

A most frustrating situation but one I feel could have been avoided.

 

[cdbe]

Hi, that's fair enough but we thought we didn't have much to lose so it was worth trying the process. I also thought (clearly mistakenly) that his objection may have prompted some feedback/discussion with the Council, and that the existence of an appeals process meant that an objection was not necessarily a complete dead end that should prompt an immediate withdrawal.

Hopefully we will do better with the planning application and that the process will allow us to submit something acceptable.

 

[Footsoldier888]

cdbe you and I might think like that but this is planning. It is not called a jungle and a game for nothing!

Good luck with the next one anyway.

 

[cdbe]

Sorry to drag this long thread up but I thought I'd update:

We put in a full planning application for an (only) slightly shorter 5.5m extension with a metre cut out of the corner, but built right up to the boundary, and added a big first floor bedroom (set back from the boundary).

After a bit of negotiation with the planners and the expected objection from the neighbour we reduced the eaves height on the boundary side to 2m and it has been approved!
Personally I think it's arguably "worse" for my neighbour than our original proposal but what do I know.

Anyway, I just wanted to ask what the rules are for PD outbuildings - we want to build a detached but adjacent building as detailed in the stripey bit below:

My questions are: height - because it's next to boundary I know it's 2.5m, but our garden slopes up so if it's 2.5 from the highest adjacent natural ground it's going to be at least 2.7 when it gets near the house - is this ok?

Distance from house - how close can I build it? I think it's fairly obvious that it might end up being connected to the new extension in the future, in breach of planning regs (if I think I can get away with it), but at present it will probably need to be separate - I've heard as little as 50mm would be considered separation? Also, should I be building the outbuilding before the extension or doesn't it matter? I know, courtesy of my neighbour, that it will all be brought to the attention of the planners. Should I think about an LDC - to establish the separation from the not yet built extension and because there is a bit of ambiguity over the "natural" ground level further up the garden as we've built it up a bit a few years ago.

Thanks.

 

[Nakajo]

1mm is sufficient.