Laying linoleum on concrete…

[nirakaro]

OK, I know laying linoleum is strongly disrecommended as a DIY job, but as a joiner I feel reasonably confident that I can make, and work from, a template accurately enough.
The setting: tiny 200-year-old stone-built terrace cottage, renewing the kitchen. Two-foot thick walls, sound concrete floor, no evidence of a damp-proof course in either, but also no sign of rising damp except in one spot by a party wall and behind a kitchen unit. And a square foot or two of penetrating damp by the back door, which may or may not dry out now that I’ve replaced the rotten timber threshold with concrete. The floor is only an inch at most higher than the concrete yard outside the back door.
The job: lay linoleum to the area not to be covered by kitchen units, roughly 2.8m x 1.4m. Tight budget – I want a sound and durable job, but don’t want to spend more than necessary to achieve it.
The story so far: I’ve taken up the old laminate flooring, which was loose-laid over a sheet of polythene maybe twelve years ago. All perfectly sound and dry. The concrete’s been screeded with self-levelling compound, and is sound and flat except one or two tiny areas where it hasn’t feathered out perfectly. Reasonably easy to fill, I imagine.
The questions: One – what would be the possible bad results if I simply loose-laid the linoleum over a polythene membrane? (I know lino should always be glued down; I also know that the loose-laid lino (not vinyl) that I crawled on as a baby was still doing its job quite adequately at least fifteen years later!) There’d be walls at both ends, kitchen units all along both sides, to stop it wandering around.
Two – if that’s a definite no-no, and since the floor is not 100% dry, I presume I should put a damp-proof membrane in. Would something like Sika Rapid Liquid DPM do the job? And could I glue the lino down directly over it, without re-screeding?

 

[lymmranger]

OK, I know laying linoleum is strongly disrecommended as a DIY job, but as a joiner I feel reasonably confident that I can make, and work from, a template accurately enough.
The setting: tiny 200-year-old stone-built terrace cottage, renewing the kitchen. Two-foot thick walls, sound concrete floor, no evidence of a damp-proof course in either, but also no sign of rising damp except in one spot by a party wall and behind a kitchen unit. And a square foot or two of penetrating damp by the back door, which may or may not dry out now that I’ve replaced the rotten timber threshold with concrete. The floor is only an inch at most higher than the concrete yard outside the back door.
The job: lay linoleum to the area not to be covered by kitchen units, roughly 2.8m x 1.4m. Tight budget – I want a sound and durable job, but don’t want to spend more than necessary to achieve it.
The story so far: I’ve taken up the old laminate flooring, which was loose-laid over a sheet of polythene maybe twelve years ago. All perfectly sound and dry. The concrete’s been screeded with self-levelling compound, and is sound and flat except one or two tiny areas where it hasn’t feathered out perfectly. Reasonably easy to fill, I imagine.
The questions: One – what would be the possible bad results if I simply loose-laid the linoleum over a polythene membrane? (I know lino should always be glued down; I also know that the loose-laid lino (not vinyl) that I crawled on as a baby was still doing its job quite adequately at least fifteen years later!) There’d be walls at both ends, kitchen units all along both sides, to stop it wandering around.
Two – if that’s a definite no-no, and since the floor is not 100% dry, I presume I should put a damp-proof membrane in. Would something like Sika Rapid Liquid DPM do the job? And could I glue the lino down directly over it, without re-screeding?

............your post is wrong in almost its entirety

is it lino or is it "sheet vinyl" - an important question..........You say later on it is lino but lino is a lot more expensive than vinyl so why would you choose it when cost appears to be an issue?

the thickness of the walls isn`t important!!!!!!!!!!

no signs of "damp" except in one area......... - not good!

you do not want to spend more than is necessary to achieve "what"????? - yet you want a sound and durable job

vinyl should be loose laid (glue not required)
Linoleum is beyond most fitters let alone a "joiner"........
a membrane is completely un necessary on a sound sub-floor - see above! - if a DPM is required polythene is "wrong"!!!!!! - and a cheap skate "fix" which WILL sweat!

your final point regarding a DPM will depend on your precise circumstances and the final decision should be left to an experienced fitter...............

....................more info please!!!!

 

[lymmranger]

Edit - due to "odd" eiting

 

[nirakaro]

Well, I thought I was pretty clear that it's linoleum I'm using, not vinyl: I want to finish with a quality job at minimal cost. Reasonable?
I'm a skilled craftsman of long standing, used to cutting material with millimetre or sub-millimetre precision: there's nowhere on this job where 5mm tolerances would be a problem.
Thickness of walls seems possibly relevant to me, since it suggests the difficulty of there being a DPC in them.
Polythene may be 'wrong', but it seems to have worked for the last decade or so. So seems a reasonable question.
And I struggle to see how a post which only provides the background and asks questions can be 'wrong'.
Thank you for your help.

 

[lymmranger]

Well, I thought I was pretty clear that it's linoleum I'm using, not vinyl: I want to finish with a quality job at minimal cost. Reasonable?
I'm a skilled craftsman of long standing, used to cutting material with millimetre or sub-millimetre precision: there's nowhere on this job where 5mm tolerances would be a problem.
Thickness of walls seems possibly relevant to me, since it suggests the difficulty of there being a DPC in them.
Polythene may be 'wrong', but it seems to have worked for the last decade or so. So seems a reasonable question.
And I struggle to see how a post which only provides the background and asks questions can be 'wrong'.
Thank you for your help.

I recently retired, having spent over 30 years selling all types of flooring.
Only once was a job ever installed using "lino" - it was an absolute nightmare, we ended up hiring in a very expensive fitter to do it. He promptly mucked it up very badly (and expensively).
Lino was standard kitchen bathroom flooring when I was a kid but it was never "fitted" it just covered most of the floor with gaps around its perimeter. It is more difficult to fit than safety flooring (as in hospital floors).
It is a very brittle and often fragile at this time of year. standard templating didn't seem to work on the job I mentioned above.
The difficulty in fitting it is why vinyl has become so popular.
It has recently gained the interest of the green brigade because it doesn't harm the environment as much as vinyl (during manufacting) But......
its expensive to buy!!!
I know you had confirmed it was lino twice in your post but I questioned whether you really meant lino because of the problem entailed in trying to fit it.
You seem determined and are convinced you are also "right" so..............

I wish you luck

 

[dazlight]

1st thing to do is make sure you have a dpm under the floor if laying linoleum.
But if you took a flooring up an there was no damp there you could be ok.
If tying to save on cost then maybe use jumpax ontop of the concrete then lay flooring on that.
If you want to take a chance then lay it straight on the concrete. I would fit it after then kitchen is in though. That way part of the concrete isn't covered with linoleum so that part of the floor can breathe.

 

[crazydaze]

The correct procedure would be:

Measure residual moisture in subfloor with at least a protometer but preferably a hydrometer, this will tell you if the subfloor is 'dry' or not, your eyes can't make that decision for you. The floor MUST be measured throughout the areaat regular intervals and cover the entire floor before committing to the next stage.

Once you know if the floor is dry, your next course of action will take you down two paths, either it is dry, in which case it's the 'simple' (usually made a mess of if you don't have experience) case of laying a self levelling screed which you will then need to rub down with a block the following day in order to level and smooth the subfloor so that you can lay the linoleoum (which is fully bonded to the subfloor with a trowel whose specs need to conform to the recommendations of the linoleum company) and remember, if there is so much as a tiny imperfection or spec of grit/grain of sand left under the floor it will show like Mount Everest in the new flooring

or

If the subfloor is NOT dry, then you will need to treat the subfloor with an appropriate liquid DPM (probably a two part mix with accelerator which s usually very expensive) and then screed the floor (usually 2-3 days worth of visits to prep) OR you could call F-Ball Adhesives advice line and ask them about their Isolator membrane product which in some circumstances can be used under linoleum and LVT and bonded too. This latter option would possibly be significantly simpler and easier a proposition, but the subfloor needs to be level and not lumpy/bumpy.

Remember, the most difficult job in an area like this is the preperation, if it is not perfect, at best the new floor will be lumpy and bumpy, at worst, the whole lot will fail and blow through moisture damage. The fact that the floor that is being laid is linoleum, means that assuming it's the sheet rather than the tile, your job has just about become THE most difficult flooring product that can be laid today. In 16 years in the business, I have only known 2 floor fitters that a) I would trust to lay the stuff, and b) have openly been happy to touch the stuff. Despite having the good fortune to have worked with a number of very very accomplished floor layers, linoleum will make even the very best pro's wince at the difficulties involved in laying the product.

Trust me, it's a million miles away from being a simple 'template and fit' product.

If you can use the tile product rather than the sheet, the job will be (relatively) easier.

But the prep still needs to be perfect.

To give you an idea what might go wrong, go and visit your local supermarket, shopping mall, M&S etc and look at the floors, if it's a vinyl sule product that's laid, I can guarantee you that there will be trowel marks showing through the floors surfaces in the lights and reflections. This might be acceptable in commercial premises, but I PROMISE you, 99.9% of customers will insist that you rip the whole lot up and re-do it in their home. and remember, those commercial floors were laid by proffesionals who 'know what they are doing'.

on the plus side, if you tackle this and have great results, forget the joinery trade, you could have just hit a potential gold streak BIG time and could be a highly desireable linoleum fitter, earning a significant premium in the premium end of the flooring trade.

There is a possible option that may make life easier, if the product the customer wants fitted is Marmoleum, get in touch with Forbo and look at the specs involved with their self adhesive underlay system. It won't be as solid as the more common installation methods, but it might be perfect for you as it will minimise all the difficult aspects of the job regarding the moisture, levelling and trowling out of adhesive, however if the customer still wants the sheet version of the product, it's still a very very tricky proposition.

 

[nirakaro]

Well, thanks to all three for those salutary bits of advice; suitably chastened, I’ll go off and think again. Having thought again, if it was down to me, I suspect I’d still give it a try, because I like a challenge (or, I’m an arrogant, foolhardy idiot. Take your pick.) But in this case, I think the “customer” (who’s also my wife), will wimp out and go for a ceramic tile solution. Very sensible! Thanks again for the advice anyway.
I’m still puzzled though. Why does lino have to be glued down when vinyl doesn’t? Isn’t the issue of getting a level substrate at least as crucial with vinyl? Why is a polythene membrane such a bad solution under lino when it’s worked fine under laminate for ten years?
And Lymmranger, I’d suggest that another time, you resist the temptation to stick quotes round anyone’s description of their trade. It’s patronising, not to say insulting. I think that a distinction in a City and Guilds advanced course, plus thirty years earning my living at it, gives me the right to be called a joiner, not a “joiner”.

 

[crazydaze]

Well, thanks to all three for those salutary bits of advice; suitably chastened, I’ll go off and think again. Having thought again, if it was down to me, I suspect I’d still give it a try, because I like a challenge (or, I’m an arrogant, foolhardy idiot. Take your pick.) But in this case, I think the “customer” (who’s also my wife), will wimp out and go for a ceramic tile solution. Very sensible! Thanks again for the advice anyway.
I’m still puzzled though. Why does lino have to be glued down when vinyl doesn’t? Isn’t the issue of getting a level substrate at least as crucial with vinyl? Why is a polythene membrane such a bad solution under lino when it’s worked fine under laminate for ten years?
And Lymmranger, I’d suggest that another time, you resist the temptation to stick quotes round anyone’s description of their trade. It’s patronising, not to say insulting. I think that a distinction in a City and Guilds advanced course, plus thirty years earning my living at it, gives me the right to be called a joiner, not a “joiner”.

What you are not taking into account, is any understanding of what Lino is, and how it reacts to temperature, humidity etc etc. Lino is not stable, it needs to be fully stuck, with no air gaps, with a specialist adhesive which must be perfectly applied to ensure an all over, even bond. Once fitted correctly it will be stable and hard wearing. Get anything wrong, and it will lift, bubble, crack and warp.

Sheet vinyl is constructed in a very different way, it is stable enough to only require to be loose laid with enough allowance of expansion and settling in. It's simple enough to trim if it does bubble and it's very pliable, so there is an element if easier handling and it can be laid back down successfully after remedial work.

Linoleum can't.

If you have a problem with linoleum, and you have to lift it, it will be ruined, you have one chance and one chance only to get it right.

With regards to the poly sheet under laminate, again, your lack of understanding if what Lino is has confused the principles of why the Lino must be laid in a certain way. The F-Ball Isolator may be an option, but it's a rigid platform on which you can possibly fully bond the Lino, a sheet of poly sheeting has no structural integrity, any vinyl or Lino laid in too will look as wavy as the North Sea after a few hours of use as the whole lot will fold up when you walk on it.

 

[nirakaro]

Thanks Crazydave.