Loud oscillations from Ariston combi boiler - please help

[mtspark]

I phoned Ariston and learned some useful facts.

1. The manual is wrong, the correct air/gas ratio figures are 8.7% as suggested here.

3. The manual is also wrong in saying the minimum gas pressure is 17mbar, it should be 20mbar, however the techsupport person said I would get away with 19mbar without problems.

3. The resonance is a known problem and the fix is to upgrade the on-board EPROM with new control software to eliminate the noise.

4. They refuse to give me the software update because I'm not CORGI registered, despite it not being illegal for me to do the installation.

I'm pretty annoyed at this point...., can anybody help me out with the software?

Best Regards,
Mark.

 

[Agile]

I phoned Ariston and learned some useful facts.

1. The manual is wrong, the correct air/gas ratio figures are 8.7% as suggested here.

4. They refuse to give me the software update because I'm not CORGI registered, despite it not being illegal for me to do the installation.

Mark.

Lots of CORGIs here have told you that the correct setting of the boiler is to give 8.7 % of CO².

Yet you still say that its an air/gas ratio. That demonstrates to me that you have not asimilated the operational aspects of combustion devices. I would therefore agree that they are right not to send you any parts for the boiler.

However, the boiler is under the guarantee and so their own service agent should come and do the upgrade free of charge.

Tony

 

[mtspark]

Lots of CORGIs here have told you that the correct setting of the boiler is to give 8.7 % of CO².

Yet you still say that its an air/gas ratio. That demonstrates to me that you have not asimilated the operational aspects of combustion devices. I would therefore agree that they are right not to send you any parts for the boiler.

You're continued snide comments are demonstrating to me that you never asimilated your mothers teachings about being polite.

Actually, one person said 8.7% and I wanted to verify this with Ariston; the internet is full of misleading information.

You obviously haven't read the Ariston manual. The gas valve adjustments in question come under the heading "Air/Gas Ratio Check" and go on to talk about air/gas ratio at minimum power and maximum power.

 

[x-man]

MTS I find this post highly amusing
Illegal and incompetent come to mind

 

[bripl]

mts wrote

1. The manual is wrong, the correct air/gas ratio figures are 8.7% as suggested here.


3. The manual is also wrong in saying the minimum gas pressure is 17mbar, it should be 20mbar, however the techsupport person said I would get away with 19mbar without problems.
he lies you need 20


3. The resonance is a known problem and the fix is to upgrade the on-board EPROM with new control software to eliminate the noise.
more lies

now you would be better off getting someone who knows what they are doing x man is spot on

 

[Bendo]

However, the boiler is under the guarantee and so their own service agent should come and do the upgrade free of charge.Tony

It probably isn't now, he said it was left around in the box for a year. The Ariston 5 year guarantee is only valid if it's been installed by a corgi and serviced yearly and proof of the service sent off to them.

Looks like he is stuck.

 

[mtspark]

MTS I find this post highly amusing icon_lol.gif
Illegal and incompetent come to mind

Then that just goes to show you that you are ignorant of the law. Its certainly not illegal for me to install my own boiler Mr x-man. I challenge you to prove otherwise.

It probably isn't now, he said it was left around in the box for a year. The Ariston 5 year guarantee is only valid if it's been installed by a corgi and serviced yearly and proof of the service sent off to them.

The guarantee is valid from the date of installation, not the date of purchase.

The resonance is a known problem and the fix is to upgrade the on-board EPROM with new control software to eliminate the noise.
more lies

now you would be better off getting someone who knows what they are doing icon_lol.gif icon_lol.gif x man is spot on icon_lol.gif

OK, so what's the problem then bripl? You should be able to say straight away having installed many Aristons? I've taken your advice, the boiler is now setup perfectly for 8.7% CO2, and still the same issue.

Let me tell you a story about plumbers. I arranged for 4 quotes to install and commission my Ariston boiler. Out of those four, only one of them had the courtesy to turn up at the appointed time. The others were no-shows and didn't even ring to say they couldn't make it.

The one plumber that did turn up had never installed an Ariston before and wanted to go away and read the manual. He also wanted to charge me a rediculous sum for the installation. I also being able to read the manual decided to install it myself. So far have saved of the order of £1200 after the cost of materials and test equipment etc.

And you wonder why I don't get someone qualified to come and install it? Basically, I couldn't find anyone experienced with this make of boiler.

 

[Softus]

Its certainly not illegal for me to install my own boiler Mr x-man.

It certainly is illegal if you're not competent, but this is an old and tired forum argument.

Let me tell you a story about plumbers. I arranged for 4 quotes to install and commission my Ariston boiler.

So, from the outset you planned to utterly waste the time of at least three out of those four tradespeople.

So far have saved of the order of £1200 after the cost of materials and test equipment etc.

You haven't yet saved anything because you don't have a working boiler. Using your logic I could save myself a cool quarter of a million pounds by building an MDF version of the delectable Bentley Azure Convertible. It wouldn't work as it should, but apparently that doesn't matter.

And you wonder why I don't get someone qualified to come and install it?

It's because you couldn't. Most installers can sniff a rogue customer a mile off.

 

[mtspark]

So, from the outset you planned to utterly waste the time of at least three out of those four tradespeople.

Hahaha , what planet are you on? It's standard practice to obtain more than one quote to get a job done. As a customer, you'd be foolish not to. As a tradesperson, it's part and parcel of doing business. Get real man.

 

[Softus]

It's standard practice to obtain more than one quote to get a job done.

You might think it's "standard", but that clearly isn't the same thing as "universal", or even the practice of most people. It's irrelevant anyway, because my point wasn't how commonplace it is, but how little thought you, and the other people who do the same thing, put into whether or not you're wasting someone's time.

As a customer, you'd be foolish not to.

Really? I don't get quotes, when I'm a customer. I use people I trust, and I trust them not to overcharge me. If they do, then they get no more work out of me, and no referrals or recommendations. The advantage to them is that they know that if I contact them then I'll pay them, not waste their time asking how much, and then three quarters of the time not use them.

As a tradesperson, it's part and parcel of doing business.

Interesting. I don't know whether or not you're a tradesperson, but I am, and I never quote. Indicative price? Rarely. Quote? Never. My customers know that I don't overcharge.

Get real man.

There's more than one reality. I can see them. Can you?

 

[Agile]

[quote="mtspark]
You obviously haven't read the Ariston manual. The gas valve adjustments in question come under the heading "Air/Gas Ratio Check" and go on to talk about air/gas ratio at minimum power and maximum power.[/quote]

I agree that I have not read the manual. I dont have the time to read every boiler manual for an hour just to give free advice. However I have enough knowledge about boilers in general to give some useful replies.

The manual is not wrong to talk about the air/gas ratio. Thats what is being adjusted on the gas valve. However the air/gas ratio itself is not measured.

The competent CORGI engineer will measure the CO² percentage in the flue gases. This is related to the gas/air ratio at the burner input. The CO² percentage measurement is used as the indicator to set up the boiler.

You obviously do not seem to have previously understood this. This makes me doubt that you are competent to work on gas boilers and that view seems to be shared by the manufacturers.

I note that you did not engage any of the four people you called to give a quote.

Tony

 

[x-man]

Mts, I am not ignorant of the law, like you I have fitted a boiler, many boilers to be frank but I am competent to do so. I have all the relevant qualifications, experience, CORGI REGISTERED gas and part-p. You are not qualified to setup a boiler as you are not even Corgi registered. If somebody competent replaced your boiler you would not have this problem as it would have been resolved along time ago. Do yourself a favour and get somebody qualified to do the job right.

 

[Agile]

The guarantee is valid from the date of installation, not the date of purchase.

Sorry, I missed commenting on that point previously.

Under the Sale fo Goods Act its the date of purchase that counts.

The warrantee is provided by the manufacturer. The one we do some work for accepts the later of the date its purchased or the date the warrantee card is returned as long as that within a year of manufacture.

If a major component fails outside the warranty they will often provide free issue parts at their discretion for a few months even after the warrantee period has expired if the repair is done by an accredited Service Agent and the installation has been done to a good standard by a genuine CORGI installer.

MTS, you replied to someone earlier that you thought you were competent and suggested he prove that you were not. Obviously without testing you that would be impossible ! If you think that you are competent then why not tell us what training and relevant qualifications you have?

If you really are competent then why are Ariston not prepared to send you the updated PROM ? Can you not prove your competence to them?

Tony

 

[Timmyturtle]

Just wait till he comes to sell the house using these new sellers packs
An unregistered boiler hmmmmm...
God help him if theres a gas leak
Im not Corgi , I fitted my own boiler ,and got a Corgi to commision it (admittedly I used to work for him so he knows my capability)
He was there to test and liven the system the PROPER way ,the day the boiler was started

 

[mtspark]

===========
gas4you wrote:
As a guide that Vaillant 831 I fit uses 3.3m3/hr max, whilst the 837 uses 4m3/hr

You should find that 3.3m3/hr is ok on 22mm copper up to 12/15m (equivalent length)


David, you often mention this "rule of thumb" that you seem to work to.

I do have to say that my experience is that 35 kW or 3.4 m³/hour will not provide an adequate supply with 12/15 m of 22 mm tube in fact in my experience 5-6 m equivalent is usually the maximum.

Are you really saying that you can achieve less that 1 mB pressure loss at these lengths? Can you give me an address where I could see this in operation for myself?
==============

Actually, David's calculations seem to be the same as recommended here:

http://www.cda.org.uk/megab2/build/pub124/sec3.htm

They must have missed something because reality doesn't gel with their theory. I'm measuring a 2mbar drop across 7m effective length with 3m3/h boiler. Clearly to keep the drop down to 1mbar, I need to upgrade the pipe to 28mm.

===========
x-man said:
If somebody competent replaced your boiler you would not have this problem as it would have been resolved along time ago. Do yourself a favour and get somebody qualified to do the job right.
=============

I did try to find someone qualified, but nobody around here either showed up or had ever installed an Ariston before.

Also, I wouldn't have learnt anything would I? Now I have a very good understanding of boilers and their installation and maintenance. I've even studied quite a bit about combustion driven oscillation, a very interesting problem that remains unsolved in boiler design today. The latest active systems continually vary the gas rate to try to avoid any instabilities, something I doubt the Ariston does. This technique is cheating a bit though IMO.

I'm about to replace the gas pipe with a 28mm one this weekend with fewer bends, it's clearly too small for this boiler. So we'll see if this cures the problem. BTW, the new EEPROM key didn't help - top marks are awarded to bripl's and Tony's expertise so far