Luna 24Fi 1.20 - Water pump continues to run with burner off

[cjarsmith]

Hi,
I have a Luna 24fi boiler also known as a Baxi Luna 1.20

I've had a few different service people out to take a look at the boiler, but just like most other people who have problems with these boilers, the service people are only interested in pushing you towards getting a new system installed, they tell you you can't get parts but with a little research you can find almost all part, just not the mother board.

The problem:
A few weeks ago we noticed it was cold in the house and we had no hot water, so I went to have a look at the boiler and the top red neon light was illuminated. (manual says: blocked flue or fan fault)

Turning the boiler off for several minutes and turning it back normally make it work again.
However sometime 30 minutes or several hours later the red neon light will be back on again.

When the top red neon light gets triggered and is on, the fan get shut off, the flame gets shut off, but for some reason I can hear the water pump running and water circulating.

Also after restarting the boiler the flame/burner only appears to stay on for a few minutes max sometimes only 30 seconds, then the flame shuts off, but again I still hear the water pump running, then several minutes later the flame will reignite, this continues until at some point the red neon light appears.

A friend with some experience with the same boiler recommended trying to replace the "Fan Pressure Switch". I changed it today but the problem still continues.

Can anyone offer any advise on pin pointing the problem?
Should the water pump continue to run when the burner goes off?

One last thing I wanted to mention, during the night and when the neon light is on, the noise inside the pipes isn't the same as in the past, it sounds like a tap is running and you can hear the water flowing and splashing. I know the water is flowing but I don't recall hearing it like that before.

Some other details, this boiler heats the hot water and also the baseboards around the house, if I set the boiler to only heat the water the burner generally stays on, but if I was to fill the bath the red neon light would come on before it was full.
Turning the water off at the tap stops the water pump from making the noise.
If the boiler is set to heat water and the baseboards and I then turn the thermostat up and then turn it right down to zero the water pump etc still keeps going without a burner running.

Thanks
Craig

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• cjarsmith
• 2 Jan 2013
• 1

Untitled

• cjarsmith
• 2 Jan 2013
• 1

Untitled

• cjarsmith
• 2 Jan 2013
• 1

 

[Gasguru]

Are you really in Canada?

Here in the UK that boiler is imported by a company called Alpha and the model is either the 240E or 280E. They are actually made by an Italian company called Immergas that are owned by Baxi a European wide boiler manufacturer. So searching on Alpha 240E etc will find plenty of posts.

The actual fault you describe is very common (and often requires no parts other than broken spire clips) but requires stripping down safety critical parts in the combustion chamber. Here in the UK we would not advise this is undertaken for safety reasons.

Also be aware that these boilers are now getting on and need careful inspection...I am now finding corroded inner flue ducts rendering the boiler unsafe and requiring replacement.

What gas regulations are in place in Canada regarding home owners working on their own boilers?

 

[cjarsmith]

Hi Gasguru,

Thanks for taking the time to reply, that defiantly helps.
Yes I'm located in Ottawa Canada, I'm originally from Wales UK.

These boilers have been nothing but a pain for most condo owners in this area and that's why most service people recommend installing a boiler that can handle our winters.

It's -20C without the windchill right now http://www.theweathernetwork.com/weather/CAON0512


It has a few broken spire clips that need to be replaced and I'll pick some up in the morning. I'm not exactly sure what the regulations are here and I do not intend on touching any of the gas parts.

However I felt comfortable replacing the fan pressure switch and I'm also considering cleaning/replacing the Grundfos cartridge.

---

So you think the broken spire clips are causing the burner to shut down and because the thermostat is still telling to to heat up, that's why running water noise /pump running still occurs?

Thanks again.
Craig

 

[Gasguru]

No, you always find broken spire clips on these models and need replacing since their failure can render the appliance unsafe but that's not the reason your boiler doesn't work.

Read the FAQs, I'm not going to tell you what the fault is (since it involves work in the combustion chamber) but it's a simple problem that doesn't normally require any additional parts. Any half decent boiler engineer can fix it.

These models are one of the better boilers ever sold here in the UK, many are still going strong after 15 years or so.

 

[cjarsmith]

Hi Gasguru,

No problem I understand and appreciate your help/response.
Thanks

 

[cjarsmith]

Hi Gasguru,

Putting the work related to the combustion chamber aside.

Do you think that I may have another problem because of the strange water noises, I've recorded via my iphone a quick video so you can take a look/listen if you don't mind.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2BzRwJAKew0Rm5vRmYxbm5XbTQ

Sorry the water noise isn't exactly easy to hear.

I'm going to call out another service technician to try fix the problem, but the last one hadn't even seen a boiler like this before.
Thanks

 

[cjarsmith]

I have someone coming out in the morning and will update this thread.
Hoping the technician has some experience with these boilers.
Thanks

 

[cjarsmith]

Hi Gasguru,

So I've had the service person around this morning, after I told him about the water noise he said, the system and pipes defiantly have air inside and it needs bleeding.

But the way the systems are installed it's not possible to do this due to poor installation so I'm told.

The boiler does have the one value thing that you can open to add more pressure.

The service person tells me that the expansion tank that's at the back of the boiler needs to be replaced, but he recommends having an external expansion tank added and at the same time installing a few flushing valves.
Cost $500

Have to run out, just wanted to let you know what they said, I haven't made any commitment as of yet either.
Thanks

 

[Gasguru]

Sounds like Canada has just as many useless gas engineers as the UK.

This boiler is very simple and straighforward to work on. One of the easiest in fact.

Did he check the vessel properly? See the FAQs section on re-charging the vessel. If it really has failed and additional vessel can be plumbed in. A typical 8 or 12 litre vessel here in the UK would be around £30 including fittings and a few hours labour tops. Probably need a new auto air vent at a fiver too. So 500 dollars is a rip-off.

Sometimes if there are no bleed points on the high points of pipework it can be difficult to remove the air but it generally clears eventually. Either way it's simple stuff for any pro to sort out.

So why can't they sort out the fan light. It's an easy fault to fix. Do a search on Alpha 240 fan light for a clue.

 

[Paul Hadwen]

Hellooo Craig!

I am also from Ottawa Canada! I have the same boiler about fourteen years old.

We have had continued trouble with it. Sometimes it stops running in the middle of the winter, sometimes the bleeder doesn't work so some rads on the top floors go cold, and we have had difficult repair companies as well. Denoco who are now out of business reluctantly serviced it for a few years after they installed it. They came in to bleed the pipes biweekly on winter. Anyway, we recently switched to Parent Heating and are satisfied with thier service.

I am looking for the operation and maintenance manual. Do you have a PDF copy? or can you refer me to where I can find it online? I have had no luck so far.

Good luck with your Luna (if you still have it).

Best regards,

Paul

 

[Gasguru]

Google Alpha 240e or 280e manuals....as it's very similar if not identical. Despite Canadian views that this is a poor boiler I can categorically say this model is one of the most reliable boilers ever produced. You probably have a poorly installed system and a hopeless repair network that don't understand the way the system works. A look at the forums over your side shows the heating industry is just as poor there in terms of competence and knowledge.