Mould or something horrible under floorboard

[ree]

You still have your questions spread out - ie. in the roofing forum. Suggest that you ask mods to move your other posts to here in one place only.

If the upper floor area is clear of suspicious signs then perhaps the white fluffy stuff at the ceiling/chimney breast angle is crystal sulfate salts which can sometimes manifest like dry rot bloom.
Problem is your pics are too murky to distinguish a positive ID at the ceiling.

Sulfate crystal would have penetrated the brickwork & plaster from the sulferisation taking place in a sooty flue.

The new pics of the sub-floor area:

the joists are very low over soil - even with good ventilation it would be difficult to provide a good air flow in that void. As above, as many extra air vents/bricks as possible to be installed at the front and rear elevations.

Perhaps install a membrane to cover the soil.

All debris should be removed including any bricks wedging up any joists.
There are indications that previous remedial work has been carried out to the joisting.

Any joisting with fungal indications must be cut back and replaced.

More floor boards need to be lifted beyond the three already lifted, and all around the chimney breast boards should be lifted.

Remove the skirting board above where you have opened the floor up, and examine the back of it, and check the wall for fungal strands running up the wall.

Pics of the chimney breast and wall would help.

 

[Charlottemclaughlin]

I've just uploaded pictures of images requested on here. Please see my album titled photos of house
//www.diynot.com/network/Charlottemclaughlin/albums/

 

[Charlottemclaughlin]

Hi Ree,

Answers to your questions below. I've uploaded photos you requested to an album (which i still cant figure out how to put into these posts!!). Would appreciate any further advice. My sister and I are feeling pretty distressed about this right now and desperately wanting to get it sorted (though trying to patient too!) Holding off from paying anyone any money yet. Some people I have spoken to said we definitely have dry rot, others wet rot and the latest company I spoke to said we had Mine Fungus (Fibroporia Vaillantii). Have the initial guy that did the damp survey coming round tomorrow and on the phone he said we 'definitely' have dry rot. Everyone says something different! Answers to your questions below... hopefully this helps...

1. What exactly did the original surveyors ( presumably a mortgage surveyor and your own private surveyor) have to say about any damp or timber matters?

The full buildings survey (private surveyor) said:
Fit additional sub floor ventilation front, which has been blocked up, with 215 x 215 air brick and ideally fit two to the front and fit the correct cover to the rear air brick and ensure this is a 215 x 215 air brick also otherwise rot will occur to the timber sub floor and there will be repairs required. There could be repairs to the back area anyhow. We did not take the floor coverings up so cannot be certain. There will be floorboard repairs to the first floor if you replace any floor coverings, which is common in a building of this age.
The property was tested with a damp meter and there was damp found to the front and side and rear walls. A damp contractor, whose number is at the end of the report, should be commissioned to do a damp test of the entire ground floor and will give you a quotation for any works needed. Fit an extract fan to the bathroom and kitchen to stop the migration of moist air around the property which causes mould and condensation problems.
It was noted under the stairs there was some woodworm (annobium punctatum) and this is common. The damp and timber contractor will comment on this if any spraying is necessary. There may be some defective timber under the floor;
The ground levels to the rear should be lowered as they are bridging the damp proof course.

2. What did the two damp proof companies have to say about damp and rot in their reports?
DAMP PROOF COMPANY 1
Rising Damp
Tests of all accessible walls with an electronic moisture meter and close visual inspection revealed excessive moisture within the structure indicating an absence of, or a failure in the existing damp proof course. Areas requiring treatment are :
Front elevation right hand side (as viewed from outside)
Party wall between front elevation and chimney breast
Back main wall in second reception room
Back main wall in kitchen
Rear section of flank wall to back addition (dining room)
Recommended treatment: damproofing injections, and fitting two addition airbricks to front and one to back.
Ground Levels
The ground levels to the rear elevations are too high in relation to the existing/proposed damp proof course and we would recommend lowering by means of pea shingle filled trenches.
Timber
Inspection of the floor timbers was restricted by the presence of floor coverings, but where access was available, i.e. under stairs, attacks of Anobium Punctatum (Common Furniture Beetle) were observed.
Treatment:
Floorboards are lifted to allow sub floor timbers to be thoroughly brush cleaned. Any structurally unsound timber to be cut out and destroyed. New timber to be fixed and whole pressure sprayed to refusal.
If, on exposing sub floor timbers, any further work is found to be necessary e.g. rot or decay not previously identified, an additional estimate will be submitted.
DAMP PROOF COMPANY 2
High damp readings found on the ground floor, airbrick to the front bay needs to be renewed, the plinth to the front elevation and the rear only on the wall area under the middle room window is bridging the damp course, and the rest is cut off above the damp course, could not check the floor because of floor coverings, the slopes to the floor are pronounced, brick wall to the front is probably causing some penetrating damp
Middle kitchen area behind units is plaster boarded so readings could be taken
Behind the rear kitchen units there will probably be damp and separate costing will be made for this
Remedial works
Fit new air vent to the front bay, treat all rising damp issues with our treatment method for rising damp and shown on our gridded plan of works, cut back the exterior plinth so that it does not bridge the plinth.


3. What D&T work was carried out by the Damp companies or anyone else? Do you have any warranties or guarantees?
Our building contractor said he could do damp proofing work at a cheaper price so we went with him. He removed plaster back to brickwork and did damp proof injections (drilling from the inside) in the front reception room (front elevation and to the right of the chimney breast, in the living room (back main wall), and the flank wall of the kitchen (drilling from the outside). This comes with a guarantee from Sovereign damp proofing.

4. Did anyone mention the chimney breast(s) or chimney stack?
Have all your flues been swept? Has the chimney stack(s) been inspected?

Our buildings survey said: fit a cowling to the main chimney stack to vent the flues. Flashings are cement fillets which will require replacement in the future with lead cover flashings.
…. Fit vents to chimney breasts which are blocked up and fit cowlings to the main chimney stack to vent the flue.
(we haven’t done this or any other work to the chimneys. We’ve just added vents to the chimney breasts internally, ground and first floor)

5. Did anyone look under or go under the suspended floor(s)?

No, the floors were until recently covered in laminate so no one inspected the floorboards or below them. We only fairly recently removed the laminate and have only just discovered the soft floorboard at the front of the reception room which led us to discovering the rot underneath.

7. Did, or does, the house have condensation issues?
We don’t know. The wallpaper in the reception room at the front (the mould area) did have black marks on it and a couple of builders that quoted said it was condensation but this wasn’t mentioned by any of the damp specialists.

 

[Burnerman]

Excellent photos, Charlotte......horrified to see what's been exposed though!
Typical dry rot, this, and there's also signs of wet rot (all depends on water content, but wet rot is nothing like as serious.)
That floor needs to go, and now......it should be burnt, and any surrounding timber needs to go as far as possible for around one metre radius.
As you've been advised, the more air that can circulate beneath your floor, the better......the air brick problem has been the cause of all this originally.
Dry rot doesn't carry water with it, but it can pass through brickwork etc in the quest to find new timber.
Many aggressive chemicals are available for the treatment, but firms offering this service need full access to all floor areas for it to be permanent.
So sorry to see this.
John

 

[Charlottemclaughlin]

Oh no john, we're rather devastated to see your reply !

Is there really no chance it could be Mine Fungus?? I'll copy the email I received earlier from someone...

HI Charlotte,

From the photos supplied it would appear this is Mine Fungus (Fibroporia Vaillantii). It does require spray treatment to eradicate and timber renewal where these are unsound.

Please do not hesitate to contact me if I can be of further assistance.

Regards

Sarah

Hi Sarah
Thanks for this email. Can I ask how you know it's this? As I have sent the pictures to another company and they said it was dry rot (which has concerned me immensely!) Thanks, charlotte

Hi Charlotte,

This fungus is often mistaken for Dry Rot (Serpula Lacrymans) however all growth is effectively pure white with Mine fungus and the strands appear flexible rather than brittle. I sent the pictures to two different surveyors here; they both came back with the same answer. The treatment required is similar to the treatment of wet rot as opposed to dry.

Please do not hesitate to contact me if I can be of further assistance.

Regards

Sarah

 

[Burnerman]

Hey Charlotte who am I to say......what set the alarm bells ringing was the fact that there was minimal ventilation below the floor, and over time rot is the result.
Looking at the fruiting bodies in your photos sort of furthered my reply, but usually there are red areas evident, together with a musty smell......in fact the spores can induce sneezing if they are disturbed.
So, over to the professionals then......I have used both Rentokil and Peter Cox in the past ( not my properties though).
I do think you need someone on site to see this, rather than analysis by photos.
Either way, infected timber has to go
Fingers crossed for a happy outcome, and do let us know......more air bricks are needed in this house though, and surveyors can't be held responsible for things they can't see. It's difficult for them if laminate has been laid as it can cover a multitude of sins.
Regards
John

 

[ree]

I apologise for confusing the front bay area with the chimney breast area - however, dodging back and forth to different forums didn't help. Your new pics, for which i thank you, have resolved quite a few items.

The various latin names that are used end up as "dry rot or wet rot" and are remedially treated as such.

Dont be too disheartened, this kind of thing goes on all the time in the building trade/D&T business. Believe me nothing so far is a big deal, its ordinary everyday work. And foolish alarmists making hysterical comments are to be ignored.More work is required thats all. These refurbishments always trickle on but they do end.

If you dont mind my saying so, you've both accomplished a great job to an older house - always a tricky business. Well done.

a. have the upper and lower rooms been hacked back to brickwork or merely skimmed?

b. why has a vent been installed above the floor in the bay?

c. The S&C plinth at the rear (& at the front)needs hacking off - its bridging the DPC. Is the ground level (GL) too high here? Extra 9" x 6" vent required here.

d. All the flues must be swept (this must be done) and the chimney stack/pots investigated for moisture entering the flues - moisture and soot and lack of ventilation can cause sulferisation. The chimney breasts will have to be opened up for sweeping.

e. Is the sloping floor, noted by D&T Surveyor, dropping towards the rear house wall. There are, possibly, rotted joists across the rear wall - flooring must be lifted for investigation.

f. In the chimney breast recesses, and in the hall by the front door, boards must also be lifted for investigation - these are often areas where any damage will present on joist bearing ends.

g. Pic of the upper room c/breast above the fluffy ceiling area showing where you removed a board, please.

h. Pic of the external bay at GL.

j. Is there a vent under the front door threshold?

k. The kitchen walls might have been dot and dabbed to mask any damp - either pull the units, and any D&D plaster board for a thorough inspection or cut inspection holes to see whatever might be there.

m. Is any moisture showing thro the solid kitchen floor or any degraded skirtings?

p. Are these old or new kitchen units?

 

[gregers]

is there any evidence of cuboidal cracking on the under side of the boards or joists themselves?
going by some of your photos there does appear to be differing colours i:e brown rot so this would suggest to me that you do have a rather bad outbreak of dry rot.heres a link 1 of many you will find on the www,
http://www.safeguardeurope.com/applications/dry_rot.php

as already mentioned by others above it looks like a costly job to sort out,but 1 that if you do a lot of research then hopefully your purse/wallet will not be raped by unscrupulous companys.

you may be able to save a few quid by removing things yourself like floor and plaster etc.
if the rot has only kept itself to a specified area then maybe then you might be able to salvage at least half the floor by going back to the nearest sleeper wall and cutting the joists there?
the trouble with dry rot is,it creates its own environment so where moisture is required to start the initial infestation once this has ceased then it will keep going.
again as said it is best to go(where feasibly possible) to go 1m past the last FOUND outbreak.
good luck in your research and outcome.

 

[Charlottemclaughlin]

Thanks so much everyone for your ongoing comments. We’ve had two damp people already come round and have three more damp/timber/rot specialists to come and have a look over the next week (including Rentakill and Peter Cox). My concern is that they will all say different things and all have their expensive treatments to sell and will leave us in greater confusion than ever (who to believe and what actions to take?!). The first guy that came round thought it was wet rot, and the second guy thought it was definitely dry rot, including the wispy white growth (which we’ve noticed is also up most of the creases on each side of the chimney breast in the reception room).

It’s just devastating that we’ve only discovered this so close to project completion (we’re halfway through decorating).

Ree, thanks for your encouragement. Here are some initial answers to your further questions:


a. I think only the downstairs reception room was hacked back to brickwork in the areas where the damproofing was done, and just to 1m or so, otherwise just skimmed. We weren’t living here when this was done so I’ll need to check with the builder.

b. I really don’t know why this vent here! It was here when we got the house so we kept it.

c. What is the S&C plinth? We had the ground level lowered at the back, with a french drain, but not the front. Do you mean extra vent (airbrick?) at front or back?

d. Please excuse my ignorance but does a general builder open up the chimney breasts and sweep the flues or do you need to get a specialist chimney sweep person?

e. The floor is sloping on the first floor downwards towards the right side of the house (if standing in front of and facing the house)

f. In the porch we have newly laid tiles! We can take up floor boards in the corridor.

j. Is there a vent under the front door threshold?
Yes, two small vents here. This front porch area is an add-on though, there's a second front door which I assume was the old front door, and so not sure whether air flow can travel through to main building.

k-p. This is a newly fitted kitchen and newly plastered walls and ceiling and tiled floor so possibilities for investigation are limited. Will investigate the living room and reception room areas first which are accessible.

 

[ree]

The floorboards should have been up, in the areas i specified, for the D&T people to inspect.

Fibroporia vaillanti is classed by some as a wet rot, but it can present a dry rot appearance - its irrelevant, the treatment is roughly the same for Fv and dry rot. Neither is a big deal if you do the remedial work properly.

I have files on investigations into the remedial business over a 35yr period. In the oct 24 1985 Building trades journal: "Staggering incompetence revealed by decay investigation" by 14 companies, including the "big ones", and all members of their mickey mouse associations.

In the jan 2012 "Which" magazine: "Dont be misled over Damp". Eleven companies including Peter Cox, Rentokil and Timberwise were seen to fail.
Timberwise failed to offer good advice on any problem in three houses and charged £144 per survey.

Nowadays these sales crews and scam artists are often members of the PCA. Gee whiz - anyone remember the "Babes in the Wood"?

Buyer beware.

 

[ree]

a. I can see a plaster line, in the reception room pic, about 1200mm above the floor, indicating some kind of previous plastering work.

b. perhaps previous had a gas appliance in the room.

c. Extra vents/air bricks are required at back and front. Pics of GL at porch front, please.

c. S&C plinth is at base of rear wall touching French drain gravel.

d. Call a sweep, discuss costs and ask what size opening is needed for their brushes?
You (DIY) can then knock out a few bricks at the vent position: an opening about 450mm wide x 450mm high. Cut the plaster away first. Its a simple job.

e. Place a long level on the floors and check the levels.
Do all the doors and windows open freely - any sign of a non-level door or window head? You could lift a couple of first floor boards and examine where the joists sit in the walls.

FWIW: take down in writing everything that anyone surveying or quoting says. Make a list with comparative columns to enable you to keep track of all verbal and written reports.

The whispy growth might require the plaster to be knocked off to expose the brickwork behind the growth.

A chimney breast has a face and two cheeks. "creases"?

The outlets on the face of the bedroom c/breast is wrong - thats a useless and possibly dangerous position for an outlet. Every c/breast recess should have a double outlet about 500mm off the floor.

 

[Charlottemclaughlin]

I've posted new photos of the ground level bay area, as requested.

The builder is coming today so we're going to ask him to remove more floorboard from other areas of house you've suggested to investigate further. Hopefully we can post photos of these this eve.

Update on 3 damp 'specialists' /surveyors so far:

1) Problem = wet rot. Man was very chilled out. Said just remove infected timber and spray. Didn't ask us to check anywhere else. said wispy wall stuff could be the salts stuff..

2) Problem = dry rot. He was a bit more alarmed / concerned/ not so chilled out. Said wispy stuff on wall was dry rot. /didn't check elsewhere either though.

3) Problem = brown rot (mine fungus). She was very chilled out/relaxed about it all. Said stuff on wall is the salts stuff. Said just remove and replace timber and spray (had quoted £500 + vat to do the spraying)

3 different perspective so far!

2 more coming on Friday (inc timberwise )2 more next Thursday (peter cox and rentokil). I'll add that we're not paying any of these companies yet. We're aware they'll all probably charge us lots of money (Which we have none of now we're at the end of a 5 month renovation project!!!) , so we're trying to do our research on here in addition to considering what they're telling us.

Builder is getting 2 more airbricks to add to front area. Do we need anymore in back area? Have the 1.

Also - we're still confused re the chimney issue and what we need to do. Does it being blocked have something to do with dry rot issue ? or is this a separate issue? We're gonna get buider to cut proper holes in chimney breast to put the vents over.

 

[ree]

The "chimney issue" : all your flues require opening up for a chimney sweep to sweep them and clear out all rubble. The openings then need to be adjusted to take vents in the c/breasts.

I suspect that the flue(S) in the c/breast with the whispy stuff to be either fungal infected or showing signs of a sulfate attack. I had originally assumed that the c/breast was connected with what turned out to be the bay area indications.

You require another vent at the rear.

Whatever the supposed value of an injected chemical DPC, to inject above the floor line when the joists are rotting away below the floor is ignorant and stupid. How can a chemical (or any other kind of ) DPC protect what is below it? Remember, its supposed to protect against "rising" damp.

New Pics:
pic 1. any render in the S&C plinth must be cut back to 50mm above ground contact all along the front elevation.
two more vents should be fitted in the front bay elevation.
GL is rising to the right possibly breaching any original DPC.

pic 3. The vents under the threshold are useless if the floor behind them is solid.

pic 5. is the tiled vestibule floor solid?
joist tails running into the brickwork below the new door threshold need checking for decay and ventilation.

Did you draw the D&T "surveyor's" attention to any other areas?
Without a comprehensive survey of the property then their views are limited.
"Brown rot" was an older term for dry rot.
Ignore the attitudes of these sales people they jump into character depending on situation and customer.

If you posted the prices that the D&T people are quoting you would provide real life info for many DIY'ers who will be following this thread - prices also give an indication of how much work they intend to do eg. the spray off for £600 incl. vat. - believe me, no other work will be performed for that price.

Have any D&T'ers provided you with an annotated diagram of their survey results and recommendations?

 

[ree]

Just noticed: when the reception c/breast is opened up then a careful inspection must be made up the flue for signs of chemical or fungal infestation. The whispy stuff has a source whether its in the flue, the floor or behind the plaster on the wall/breast.


There is mention of the floor sloping in the front reception - which way is it sloping? Have you taken a level of the front bedroom floor?

Is the lintel over the knock-thro steel or timber - is it level?

The skirtings in the front reception (esp in the bay) look as tho they have been re-used. Is this the case?

Were the recommended extractors fitted in the kitchen and bathroom?

Sovereign guarantee is for the chemical only - not the installation. Its worthless.

Has anyone examined affairs in the loft - esp the brickwork of the c/breast for water stains?

Where the porch roof plain tile meets the wall is lead flashing in position?

I ask about, and draw attention to many issues but none of them are urgent, if indeed, they require any further work - however, its best to know.

 

[Charlottemclaughlin]

No annotated diagrams provided so far from the D&T people.

I have a few more pictures. The first two show further floorboards removed in the mould area. As hoped and suspected, the rot does seem to be localised. Here we've removed about a metre beyond the last sign of it.

Let me try and insert the photos into this post

Untitled

• Charlottemclaughlin
• 4 Sep 2014
• 1

Untitled

• Charlottemclaughlin
• 4 Sep 2014
• 1

The interesting thing the builders noted was that the joists have been replaced (badly) in this area before, suggesting that rot in this area is a recurring problem.

They also lifted a floorboard every metre and half or so throughout the rest of the room and no sign of rot.

Lifting up the hearth (?) on the floor of the chimney breast, here is the photo, again no rot:

Untitled

• Charlottemclaughlin
• 4 Sep 2014
• 1

In the next door room (living room) they lifted up one floor board near the external wall. This was a wall which was damp and had the damp proofing injections. All the wood seemed in fine condition and we checked that there was airflow from the newly installed airbrick.

I understand we need to lift the floorboard in the corridor to check whether there is airflow from the vents under the door. If it is blocked, does that mean we have to take up our newly tiled porch?