Moving a hot Water cylinder

[JeffG]

Hi,

We have recently moved to a house in Berkshire. The main Hot water storage tank is located just at the top of the staircase. We are investigating if it's possible to move the tank to an area downstairs. Would this work if we fit a pump on the domestic hot water (dhw) supply to bring the water back upstairs to the bath/basins. Obviously, all related pipework has to be moved and hidden in the sub-floor and stud partition walls. DHW is 15 mm around to basins/baths & central heating is microbore from a central manifold and 22mm from boiler/manifold to the tank heating loop.

The alternative is to install a Combi Boiler. I have been reading some disturbing reveiws (on DIYnot) about Combi Boiler problems (no names) and not very confident we will find a reliable one. That's apart from the cost.

Thanks in advance.

 

[landyandy]

Hi
Is the storage tank that you want to move the black plastic one supplying the copper cylinder, or the copper cylinder itself?

Nothing wrong with a good quality combi. More important is to get your system designed and installed correctly by a competent installer.

Bit more details re. your system please.

Andy.

 

[JohnD]

why do you want to move it?

 

[JeffG]

Hi JohnD,

Thanks for the reply.

We would like to move it to re-site a shower room where the Hot Water Tank is currently (including the 'airing cupboard'). We got a guy in who has had a look but he seems unsure (that if we proceeded and he fitted a pump ) we would be happy with the basin/bath pressure.

Left us feeling a bit lost to be honest. Another plumber said it couldn't be done and he would quote for a NEW Combi Boiler instead. (3,000 quid with all the pipework).

Hope that helps ???

 

[JeffG]

Hi landyandy,

Thanks for the reply. It's the copper cylinder we want to move. Slipped up there by calling it a storage tank I guess - sorry!

On the Combi's. I was ready to make a decision and replace the Current Potterton Boiler (10 years old) with a kitchen Cupboard sized (actually fits inside a kitchen wall unit) with a well known Combi brand. Total quoted around 3,000 quid with all pipework/fittings.

I was doing some Web research on Combi Boilers when I bumped into this site (DIYnot.com) and started reading the reviews on certain products. I was shocked by what was posted.

Current system. 3 BLACK Plastic storage tanks in the loft. 1 large and 2 smaller ones. 1 (10 litre) is for Boiler expansion & filling, 1 (40 litre) feeds the cold water system and the 3rd is an intermediate (I think). Not clear on what it does but it's another 10 litre tank.

Flow & Return to Boiler is 22mm. Manifold fitted on the landing in the sub floor. 8mm microbore copper pipes from the manifold feed all the rads upstairs and down. 3 port valve and pump in the circuit alongside the copper cylinder.

Current water pressure is very good at bath/basins. We also have a brilliant shower unit in the master bedroom. Now we are not very confident and are thinking that re-siting the copper tank downstairs and fitting an auto-starting impeller pump will not do the trick. Kitchen sink, w/machine & dishwasher are all fed from mains pressure on the ground floor.

Is that enough info on the system and thanks again?

 

[JohnD]

assuming you have a cold water tank in the loft, the cylinder can be at a lower level, and will still have the water pressure derived from the height of the cold tank.

If you are fitting a shower pump, it will deliver a lot of water, so make sure your hot cylinder holds at least 100 litres and your cold water tank is bigger than that.

I am not a plumber, but if you have a bath, then you will need the supply to and from the cylinder to be in 22mm or the bath taps will have restricted flow.

 

[JeffG]

Hi JohnD,

Thanks for the reply.

I can confirm that the bath is piped up with 22mm. It just reduces to the basins/toilets, but still low pressure.

I'm not actually fitting a shower pump. We were advised that a 'flow sensing' pump will have to be fiited in the pipes for the NEW copper cylinder location (downstairs).

100 litre cylinder will be a big beast along with a BIGGER cold water tank. I won't get the loft tank through the ceiling hatch, so that will be a problem methinks.

Thanks for your time anyway.

 

[JohnD]

loft tanks are made of flexible PVC, and are mostly intended to fit through loft hatches

100 to 125 litres is the usual size of a cylinder

I can't see any need for that pump if the cylinder is fed from a loft tank. What is it supposed to do?

(but I can see that a shower pump would make the shower squirt harder)

 

[jordan1]

the simple answer her is you can move the hot water cylinder downstairs and u do not need a pump, and about a combi, advantages are no more tanks or cylinders, instant hot water, disadvantages , heating turns off when u turn a hot tap on, and it is not as good a flow eg, bath will take longer to fill

 

[JeffG]

Hi jordan1,

Thanks for the post and the encouraging news about moving the cylinder.

Information taken on board about Combi Boilers.

 

[gas4you]

The water pressure for your hot taps will remain the same wherever you position your HW cylinder.

The pressure is created by the height between the cold storage tank in the loft and the hot outlet, hence you get better pressure downstairs.

This is why standard gravity showers give appalling performance upstairs in a house.

Think someone else should be asked in to advise/quote for you, preferably someone who knows what they are talking about

 

[JeffG]

Hi JohnD,

Thanks for the post.

An additional pump is supposed to improve the flow to basin/bath if cylinder is moved downstairs. We were told it would be

absolutely essential, but would still NOT guarantee a good flow at the bath.

er - confused now ... but I suppose it means that water will still fill the bath - just not as quickly as it does at present.

We will install a

New

electric shower - something like a Triton which can be mains fed (I understand).[/quote]

 

[JohnD]

as gas4you says, as long as the cold water tank is up high, it doesn't matter if the hot water cylinder is down low. there will be slight flow reduction from longer pipes, more elbows etc but you say it is 22mm so s/be OK.

either your plumber knows something we don't, or the other way round.

an electric shower gives a very poor amount of hot water compared to a cylinder, especially a pumped cylinder supply.

 

[JeffG]

Hi gas4you,

Thanks for the post.

Thought so. Is it logic that the water is now

pushing

at a greater pressure (because it's going ALL the way downstairs and that the journey back up to the first floor should not

STOP

the flow completely.

Or have I mis-understood something?

Your last point: That's the great thing about forums like this with helpful people like you guys giving advice. When you get someone (more than just 1 someone) in - how do you know that you're getting it straight.

We have had 5 Heating Engineer/Plumber someones in. 3 say we need extra pumps, 1 says it can't be done so go for a Combi and the last one is just not SURE if it will work when he fills the system but it should !!!.

Anyway - thanks to you (and everyone else) for the help & advice. It's given us lots of info and will help us make a decision on what to do.

 

[jordan1]

the bath will not be filled as quickly if u have a combi installed, it will not decrease with moving the cylinder, if anything u will have better pressure with the cylinder downstairs as the head of water from the cws will be greater, and an electric shower is mains fed and they are fine unless u like to be blasted in the shower, then u want a power shower