Moving this away from a thread

[SUNRAY]

I'm not wrong to ask a question. MI seem to imply the UK requires different protection. I asked why?

The UK does not require different protection and MI's don't normally differentiate between UK or EU and I don't know you keep bleating on about your incorrect guesses about what happens 'over there'.
The way I read your incessant posts on this subject is a statement that MI's are wrong because things automatically run on 16A OCD's in the rest of Europe.
It is not the case. In many parts of Europe circuits will be designed as radials for a single purpose and the OCD will most likely be chosen for the device running on it. As an example a boiler circuit, whether a 5 or 16A socket or a connexion plate/box or DP switch [yes these are all realistic options], is likely to be fitted with a 3A or 4A MCB.

MODS. Please feel free to remove this if it's inappropriate

 

[ericmark]

Much I think is not so much the rules, as the way people in the countries follow the rules, the plug

is type C

• commonly used in Europe, South America & Asia (for a full list, click here)
• 2 pins
• not grounded
• 2.5 A
• almost always 220 – 240 V
• socket compatible with plug type C
  
  

 

[EFLImpudence]

The UK does not require different protection

Well - it does because there are 32A circuits.

and MI's don't normally differentiate between UK or EU

But they do. That is what is being complained about and that they do not do it properly.
You only have to look at the quoted instructions in the thread which, I presume, prompted you to start this one.

and I don't know you keep bleating on about your incorrect guesses about what happens 'over there'.

In this case Winston is correct.

The way I read your incessant posts on this subject is a statement that MI's are wrong because things automatically run on 16A OCD's in the rest of Europe.

Sort of, yes. Where products manufactured for use in Europe are sold in the UK then they do not require 3A fuses to protect them.
They might require 13A protection when plugged into 32A circuits but that is taken care of by the mandatory fitting of the plug and plug fuse.

It is not the case. In many parts of Europe circuits will be designed as radials for a single purpose and the OCD will most likely be chosen for the device running on it.

As is the case everywhere, the OPD is to protect the cable.

I have 16A radials for both sockets and lights. That's all.
Therefore anything I buy (or brought with me), or rather its flex, is protected by a 16A MCB.

As an example a boiler circuit, whether a 5 or 16A socket or a connexion plate/box or DP switch [yes these are all realistic options]

I do not know what difference that makes.

is likely to be fitted with a 3A or 4A MCB.

No it isn't.
That would only be necessary when using tiny cable.

 

[SUNRAY]

Sadly I hadn't picked up that the 3A fuse only applied to UK in this instance so apologies on that point. Generally there is no differentiation between UK & EU with regards to the fuse rating.

Having worked in a small way in Portugal, Spain, Germany and France I stand by my descriptions of designed circuits and the OCD ratings. I totally accept that my observations are limited to the fairly limited number of installations I've worked on and I too have encountered lightweight cables on 16A plugs.

However in the case of the extractor hood the cable looks like 0.5mm² or 0.75mm² so neither would be adequate for a 16A OCD. In my opinion Winstons continuing comments about such things being safe on 16A MCB's raises concerns.

EDIT: Looking at other threads it appears I'm not the only one with these concerns.

 

[winston1]

As an example a boiler circuit, whether a 5 or 16A socket or a connexion plate/box or DP switch [yes these are all realistic options], is likely to be fitted with a 3A or 4A MCB.

Point me to a 5 amp socket from Europe. I've looked here and cannot fine one.
http://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/Overview.html

 

[SUNRAY]

Point me to a 5 amp socket from Europe. I've looked here and cannot fine one.
http://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/Overview.html

Is that supposed to show a definitive list of connectors available?

 

[JohnW2]

However in the case of the extractor hood the cable looks like 0.5mm² or 0.75mm² so neither would be adequate for a 16A OCD. In my opinion Winstons continuing comments about such things being safe on 16A MCB's raises concerns.

I thought most of his (somewhat tiring) repeated comments were usually the other way around - i.e. not expressing concerns about things (and/or their cables) not being safe on 16A circuits but, rather, that since they are deemed to be safe on 16A circuits in the rest of Europe, there should not be a demand that they are protected by a 3A fuse in the UK (particularly when, as most commonly, they are fed from a 6A circuit). Is that not the case?

Kind Regards, John

 

[SUNRAY]

I thought most of his (somewhat tiring) repeated comments were usually the other way around - i.e. not expressing concerns about things (and/or their cables) not being safe on 16A circuits but, rather, that since they are deemed to be safe on 16A circuits in the rest of Europe, there should not be a demand that they are protected by a 3A fuse in the UK (particularly when, as most commonly, they are fed from a 6A circuit). Is that not the case?

Kind Regards, John

My usual interpretation is pretty much the same as you: anything is safe without a fuse because in Europe they use it on 16A.
However he goes on about having a socket rated higher than the OCD being hazardous but advocates using sockets rated lower than the OCD being safer.
If I'm honest I'm not sure what idea he is trying to portray sometimes. IMO the his opinions are not compatible and certainly not consistant.

 

[JohnW2]

However he goes on about having a socket rated higher than the OCD being hazardous ...

He does - but not because (if properly designed/installed) any part of the installation would be at risk, but because of the 'risk' of an OPD plunging a house into darkness if someone plugs a high-powered vacuum cleaner into a socket clearly intended specifically for some load load (and quiote probably labelled accordingly)!

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

Point me to a 5 amp socket from Europe. I've looked here and cannot fine one.
http://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/Overview.html

I pointed out a 2.5A one top of thread, however I think there are two very different things being mixed together. The portable appliance, and the fixed appliance. Even in the UK they are not the same, with a portable appliance with the exception of shavers and the like, they must be supplied with a 13A plug, and the manufacturer must design it so it can also be used in Europe, so you can cut off the plug and replace it without danger.

This is not true with a fixed appliance, the manufacturer can supply it without a plug, and stipulate how it is supplied, down to the fuse type, He could state
Fuse, Semiconductor, Class aR Series, 30 A, Very Fast Acting, 10mm x 38mm, 13/32" x 1-1/2" and also the RCD type as being type A rather than normal type AC.

I personally think that is daft with domestic equipment, however they could do it.

In Europe the low current outlets tend to be 2 pin and only the 10 or 16 amp outlets are 3 pin, and since the fuse is not in the plug, often no polarity. We tend to forget Italy, France, and Denmark all have their own plugs and sockets, just because there is some interchangeability with German plugs and sockets does not mean the German is standard throughout Europe, most hotels have German outlets for guests, but that does not mean they are used in private houses.

These are rated 10A called type J for example.

When working in Algeria I realised our standards can't be used, sticking a copper coated steel rod in the sand of the desert does not give you a good earth, and since electric does not flow through your body into the sand it is not really required, and when in Rome

yet another socket outlet. But the sockets have in history been less than 16A even if rated 16A so this

fuse was often used for socket outlets, OK the the 5A @winston1 wants, but close enough, and unlike our fuses you can't fit a bigger one without renewing the base, or at least smashing the base, naughty but was done.

But does it really matter what Europe does? We are leaving it seems, we have a range of domestic fuses 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 10 and 13 amp all the same physical size which can fit in FCU and plugs, I often wished we had a FCU for ovens with a 16A fuse

no real reason why we could not have a duel cooker outlet off a 45A isolator and overload with a fuse for the oven side, but we don't have one so we can't use it.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Too many things being lumped together.

Fuses etc. are for protecting the cables, not appliances.

 

[JohnW2]

Fuses etc. are for protecting the cables, not appliances.

Well, as I'm sure you would agree, it's perfectly legitimate to have fuses ("etc.") protecting appliances (there are millions out there doing just that) but "we know what you meant to say" ( ), namely that the fuses which are there to protect cables should not also be expected to (necessarily) adequately protect appliances fed via those cables!

Kind Regards, John

 

[SUNRAY]

Too many things being lumped together.

Fuses etc. are for protecting the cables, not appliances.

An oft quoted thing... But why not. Realistically why should an appliance not have a fuse in the plug or FCU etc to protect it?
Indeed the MI for the cooker hood has called for a fuse of 3A, presumably to protect the thin cable but equally it protects the appliance too.

 

[JohnW2]

An oft quoted thing... But why not. Realistically why should an appliance not have a fuse in the plug or FCU etc to protect it?

That's my usual question/argument - but the counter-argument seems to be that if an appliance requires a fuse to protect it, then the fuse should be within the appliance, since people can't necessarily be trusted to 'do as they are told' as regards putting a fuse in the plug which is of an appropriate rating to provide the appliance with adequate protection.

However, it seems to me that it could equally be said that "people can't necessarily be trusted to 'do as they are told' as regards putting a fuse in the plug which is of an appropriate rating to provide the attached cable with adequate protection" - so I'm not convinced by the 'counter-argument'!

Kind Regards, John

 

[bernardgreen]

For a designer's point of view.....

If the fuse in an appliance blows then there is very likely to be a fault in the appliance that caused the over current that blew the fuse. In most cases the fuse is there to prevent the fault and over current causing further damage that may not be contained within the appliance.