My last 9800 to ION40 question

[davidrw]

Hopefully my final topic on my impending upgrade from a Scantronic 9800 to an ION-40 is about my external sounder.

The sounder was fitted 20 years ago & I have no idea of the make as I have a white bellbox with the alarm company logo on it. The internal battery is pretty bad, when I remove the 12v line at the bell box I get quite a feeble noise from the bell. However the bell box will be my summer project so I will reuse it for now & do not intend to climb up to it.
I will be without a working panel for a couple of days, is it better just to let the sounder ring until the battery dies or is it better to rig a 12v supply at the panel end to keep it quiet for a while ?


The current sounder has 5 cores at the panel end which connect to the 0v, 12v, TR, Bell & Strobe.
I am happy how to connect the 1st 3 wires, however the specification for the 9800 says:-
Outputs OP1, OP2, Bell, Strobe = 500mA. Transistorised outputs capable of driving a relay. The Bell and strobe are set as negative applied in alarm.
The ION-40 has outputs 1 & 2 as voltage free relay outputs and 3 & 4 as transistorised outputs 0v when active and 12v when inactive.

The recommendation for the new box is to connect the sounder to the Normally Open terminal of output 1 and connect the common terminal to aux 0v , thus giving 0v in alarm and an open circuit normally.
I therefore seem to have an option as to whether I connect the bell trigger to Output 1( 0v active ; open inactive ) or Output 3( 0v active 12v inactive).
Does the difference actually matter ?
Thanks

 

[chaindaisy]

Hello David,

You'r getting on well with removing the keypad then, and you've got a good engineer with you, so all the best on that.

Very few external sounders use applied positive (12V+) to tigger. It's usually a negative trip. We can sort the outputs out simply by labelling the existing wires and connecting them to their corresponding terminals (granted with different names) at the ion, and you may very well get away with this. I haven't seen the instruction manual for the ion 40 but my guess is that you should aim to connect your bell trip or trigger to a negative applied during alarm (same as your existing). So, provided the ion has a switched negative for the sounder ( hi going lo in alarm) and the same for the strobe, then it should be virtually a straigh 'swap'

If this is as clear as mud, let me know and I'll give it another go.

Take Care Mate,

 

[davidrw]

Hello David,

You'r getting on well with removing the keypad then, and you've got a good engineer with you, so all the best on that.

Very few external sounders use applied positive (12V+) to tigger. It's usually a negative trip. We can sort the outputs out simply by labelling the existing wires and connecting them to their corresponding terminals (granted with different names) at the ion, and you may very well get away with this. I haven't seen the instruction manual for the ion 40 but my guess is that you should aim to connect your bell trip or trigger to a negative applied during alarm (same as your existing). So, provided the ion has a switched negative for the sounder ( hi going lo in alarm) and the same for the strobe, then it should be virtually a straigh 'swap'

If this is as clear as mud, let me know and I'll give it another go.

Take Care Mate,

Thanks, something simpler will be better. I am fine with switched negative as a trigger and both options do that, my issue is what should inactive normally be, I seem to have an option of inactive either being an open circuit or positive and I am not sure if that makes any difference in alarm terms.

Thanks

 

[chaindaisy]

Hi it's me again,

just noticed a little pointer in your post,

".....I therefore seem to have an option as to whether I connect the bell trigger to Output 1( 0v active ; open inactive ) or Output 3( 0v active 12v inactive)..."

I would try Output 3 here since it sinks Lo when the panel is activated. If you are using only one output to the sounder, and the strobe does not flash, connect the strobe -ve supply at the sounder to the bell trip negative.

 

[chaindaisy]

Hi Dave,

The main thing to remember, and it's virtually across the board, is that you need to trip the warning device with a 'negative' (or zero volts). Other terms in common trade slang are 'trigger negative' 'trip neg' and 'switched negative' (other terms exist).

Believe it or not.... and I don't.... I can make it even clearer than that, but that's just me putting another halo on... it is christmas !!

You're doing well David, I hope to hear some good news soon.

Best Wishes,

 

[chaindaisy]

Hello David,

Guess what ? it's me again

".....I seem to have an option of inactive either being an open circuit or positive and I am not sure if that makes any difference in alarm terms..."

I am trying to work out what they mean by 'inactive' myself. I have always done it this way.... 12V sinking to 0V... and it's a common feature of all my work. Dave, give it a try both ways if you want, you have nothing to lose.... Prove me wrong, In that way you have learned something new and you've taught an old seadog something new at the same time.

Talk with you soon,

Chain Daisy

 

[davidrw]

Thanks, I guess that there is no substitute for try it and see !!

I will test on the strobe first so I don't upset the neighbours.

Any thoughts on the other question ? <<I will be without a working panel for a couple of days, is it better just to let the sounder ring until the battery dies or is it better to rig a 12v supply at the panel end to keep it quiet for a while ? >>

 

[chaindaisy]

Hello David,

My personal preferance is to rig up 12 volts, you can do this from a plug in power supply used with some games, simply snip off the plug and find the neg and pos. But I bet we are going to get a host of '1 liners' which dispute this method, pretty soon. I'll let you know which ones to ignore.

Take Care Mate,

 

[Europlex]

Or, best of all, (& the correct way) get the ladder out and disconnect the sounder, no problems then.

^^^^^^^^^^ That's a one liner.

 

[bernardgreen]

I am trying to work out what they mean by 'inactive' myself.

It might refere to the open circuit condition where the wire is not connected to anything. As happens if the wire to the bell is ever cut. Often used as the trigger that sounds the alarm so that cutting the wire will NOT prevent the alarm being raised.

With the wire connected to the right voltage at the panel the bell is "Held off" from sounding. Remove the hold off voltage ( or cut the wire ) and the bell will ( should ) sound. Fail safe operation.

 

[davidrw]

Or, best of all, (& the correct way) get the ladder out and disconnect the sounder, no problems then.

^^^^^^^^^^ That' s a one liner.

As I said before I am not getting on a ladder until the summer !!

The ladder would be up against the house wall and the bell is on a gable wall at 90 degrees - doesn't look fun.

 

[davidrw]

I am trying to work out what they mean by 'inactive' myself.

It might refere to the open circuit condition where the wire is not connected to anything. As happens if the wire to the bell is ever cut. Often used as the trigger that sounds the alarm so that cutting the wire will NOT prevent the alarm being raised.

With the wire connected to the right voltage at the panel the bell is "Held off" from sounding. Remove the hold off voltage ( or cut the wire ) and the bell will ( should ) sound. Fail safe operation.

Thanks, I will do a few tests

 

[EightyTwo]

You've got the five bell connections all together on the i-ON. You don't need to use the outputs. Check the bell instructions on your new bell - for some reason, Gardtec have the 0V and TR swapped around .

The wiring should be the same as the 9800.

When you take the 9800 out, stick the battery on the bell holdoff (+ & -), then stick a flex and plug on the 9800 panel and use the AUX 12V to hold the bell off. No need to connect keypad or sounders - just use it as a psu! And you could put the battery back in for the inevitable Christmas powercuts...!

 

[chaindaisy]

Hello David,

Well you can take Eighty Two's advice anytime, I've read a couple of his replies and he's pretty spot on, clear and simple advice as well.

I tend to use a slightly different approach which amounts to more or less the same thing, but I reckon Eighty Two has the best solution.

I picked up a used 12volt psu for some phone, or whatever, and have used that as a temp hold off for the last few months, so it might be worth knowing ... might not.

Probably going to shut down for the next few days, but with people like eighty two around I am surplus to requirements anyway... just ignore the 'one liners' who confuse the issue.

Take Care.

Ehain Daisy

 

[davidrw]

Thanks everyone for the inputs, I will be putting all of the information to good use in a weeks time.
Happy Xmas all