new consumer unit + kitchen sockets

[chivers]

Hi, I'm replacing my kitchen, thinking about getting someone in to do the sockets and relace the consumer unit at the same time (want RCD protection to keep the little one safe.)

Got somebody coming round tomorrow to give me a quote. Would appreciate some tips on what to ask for to keep the cost down!

1. consumer unit looks like this. It's an old Wylex board that's been upgraded with MCBs. Anybody know why one fuseway is on the right (downstairs sockets), separated from the main bank on the left?

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• chivers
• 15 Sep 2009
• 2

2. currently there is one ring main for all downstairs sockets including kitchen, and the oven is on a separate radial circuit. I need several new sockets in the kitchen, and the new oven will be in a different place. The new oven can be just plugged in, or wired into a cooker outlet.
questions are:
a. should I get the kitchen sockets separated onto their own ring main, or just get the new sockets added to the existing ring main? Major electrical appliances will be oven, washer/dryer, kettle, fridge freezer, dishwasher.
b. should I get the cooker outlet moved, or just scrap the radial cooker circuit?

3. I'm going to install the new kitchen cupboards myself. I'm thinking about gutting the existing kitchen, getting the electrician to install the scokets on the wall below the work surface, then drilling holes in the backs of my new cupboards so I can plug the appliances in. Is this sensible?

Thanks for any tips!

 

[ColJack]

1. no idea why a seperate breaker....
2a.
a seperate ring for small appliances ( microwave, kettle, smoothie maker, toaster etc. )
a seperate 32A ring or radial for heavy appliances such as washer/ dryer and dishwasher
a seperate 20A radial for the fridge / freezer ( on the non rcd side of the 17th edition board, either installed so no RCD is needed or on it's own RCBO.. )
2b.
a seperate "cooker feed" for the oven.. this should be installed in 10mm cable even if it's only got a 20A breaker fitted for now to power the oven.. it gives the option of fitting an electric hob later if you want or if you ever sell..

3. opinion is divided.. .. personally I like it the way you say..

 

[chivers67]

That consumer unit looks like it's been modified by someone to me

I'd think about getting the electrician to fit some grid switches in for appliances as they look smarter. i'd and have a socket behind each unit that the appliances can plug into you'll be getting very different opinions on the subject as some people class units as fabric of the building and others don't. I'd speak to the spark your using first and see if he's happy for you to do some of the pre wiring to save costs.

ps nice name

 

[JohnD]

the separate MCB on the right will be intended for a higher-rating circuit such as an electric cooker or a old-model, low-power electric shower.

the old Wylex board was generally not designed to carry any circuit with a load above 30Amps, hence this single high-power position.

if you are having a comprehensive rewire done, it is certainly worth having your kitchen provided with:
(1) a 40A cooker outlet, even if, at the moment, you use a gas cooker, it will be useful if you change your mind or sell the house, and will not add so much to the cost if done at the same time

(2) a separate ring or radial to supply your kitchen outlets. You will probably end up with a lot of appliances. I went for a 13A socket under the counter at every position where I have, or one day might want, an appliance such as fridge, dishwasher etc. Each of these should be controlled by a switch above the worktop so that you can see how to turn off the appliance, for example for servicing or in an emergency. But don't have a switch on the wall above the cooker, you don't want to have to reach through smoke and flame if you get a chip-pan fire. Never hide switches inside cupboards. I also recommend a switched double socket at about 1-metre intervals along the worktop for mixer, coffee machine, toaster, kettle etc. You will be surprised how many outlets you can use in a kitchen. The switch for the cooker hood can be in the same row. By running your outlets along the wall 150mm above the worktop, it is very quick to install and economical in labour and cable. If you can afford a separate radial circuit for the freezer, not on the main RCD, it will reduce the risk of a fault cutting all your power and you frozen food thawing out while you are away. If you have a very large kitchen or lots of money, it is useful to have a separate radial circuit along each side of the kitchen, both to give you power in the event of a fault on one circuit, and to spread the load of appliances like dishwasher, washing machine and tumble drier - these use so much power that if you run three of them on heating cycles at the same time, you will probably trip the overload breaker for that circuit. If like me you are very eccentric you might like a cooker outlet on each side of the kitchen in case you decide to move the cooker position.

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

Glad to see you are getting a spark in for this.

I also think that the seperate way was a feature of the old wylex board, to give 1 position of a higher capacity.

Whether you decide on gas or electric cooking, i would still advise a 40A circuit for the cooker, it wont cost much extra now, but if you leave out now, then need it later in life, it definately will cost considerably more.

Personally, IMO, if your kitchen is of a decent quality and secured somehow, then the units form part of the fabric of the building, so you can fit sockets inside.

My method is to bring the socket onto the carcass gable, near to the front and top so it doesn't get hidden by pans/tins of food etc.

If you fit the sockets to the wall and drill holes in the back of the carcass, then holes need to be big enough to get to the screws securing the socket plate to the wall (please see other threads if you need to cut those screws) as its not only the plugs you need to pass through, but the connections in the back of the socket need to be accessible for inspection.

NIC and NAPIT both agree socket in cupboards are ok, if secured. I know there is a least one spark here who disagrees, but then again, apparently his kitchen isn't screwed in, so maybe in his case, its not acceptable to fit sockets to carcasses if they wobble around a bit.

Putting sockets in cupboards gives a much neater finish to splash backs as you don't need any DP's for appliances above the worktop.

I would imagine a twin RCD board with 10 ways would be about right for you. You could accomodate existing circuits, add new circuits for kitchen and still have a little room for further expansion in the future.

 

[ColJack]

if you use a 35mm surface backbox and suitable mount it to spacers if needed, then you can get the front of the socket flush with the back of the cabinet....

 

[chivers]

thanks for all the ideas guys.

i quite liked the idea of having the sockets mounted inside the cupboards, but I presume the electrician will need to do his work before the cupboards go in.... and arranging a second visit might add cost / time...
I guess I'll talk to him about it.

Thanks again!

 

[JohnD]

I don't agree with this, because as I see it, if you have a dishwasher or a fridge or some other undercounter appliance, you won't have a cupboard there full of tins and pans. Hence I have the sockets on the wall behind the appliance position (and the appliance on rollers, of course) with a supremely neat and attractive switch on the wall above the counter.

I don't understand people who want to hide switches and sockets.

View media item 4496

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

Hi JohnD,

What i should have said is, i bring the sockets into an adjacent cupboard, towards front/top.

This removes the need for 1xDP switch for each socket hidden, saves on cost.

All non permanent joints should be accessible for inspection. Its fine if you have appliances on rollers etc, but what if it is an integrated appliance, perhaps with pipes to contend with. To inspect a socket behind, for example, an integrated washing machine. You will have to mess around removing kitchen doors, plinth, pipework just in order to check the socket, IMO bit of a PIA.

Also, say, if your socket ring/radial trips, in order to find the fault, you may want to unplug everything to isolate a faulty appliance. Sockets adjacent would make it much easier to do this than sockets behind.

Even the most neatly installed DP switch onto splashbacks will never look as neat as not seeing a switch at all, just lovely shiny tiles.

Less stuff to tile around, less stuff to clean around.

Also, as a long term consideration, if the kitchen is ever to be replaced, sockets into cupboards would lend themselves to being move eaier than sockets buried into the plasterwork. If the layout of the kitchen changes, there will probably be less work involved in re-installing sockets to a new layout.

Chivers,

What extra time used by the sparky to pull sockets through will probably be less than the time it took to chase and bury cables at first fix stage, so IMO, no real difference in cost to the customer overall.

 

[Lusi83]

Not to answer your specific question (I'm not an electrician) but because I was in a similar position...so I hope this helps...and gives you a few ideas...
I had my kitchen done a few months ago and had a new consumer unit at the same time..
After talking to three electricians - (one of which was my brother) we decided that whilst I was having a major kitchen refit - I might as well have a complete rewire in there and have a new consumer unit installed - so that it was set up for the rest of the house to be rewired when necessary (current wiring is from early 70s -all tests ok for now but in the future...). The kitchen is on three 'switches' in there -sockets, oven and lights
I had a much bigger consumer unit than I needed (Wylex, dual RCD 12? or 17? way) - a couple of extra pounds now will probably save me in the future - I do plan on getting power out to a shed/sheds and possibly extending into the attic as well as the rewire.

I have isolation switches fitted to all (four) appliances ( I didn't like the idea at first - but I actually like them now- a quick discreet flick of a switch stops little monsters - sorry children - turning the washing machine/dishwasher on...or lets you defrost the fridge freezer/freezer v. easily... ). Also - I discovered when talking to kitchen planners - I don't really have many options where to put appliances...and actually I like the way the sockets break the tiles up - but I had to go for smaller tiles and think it would be much harder if I had gone for my original choice of metallic laminated splashback (or worse stainless steel or glass...)
I have a double oven - so hard wired in and the gas hob ignition plugs in next to it - and they are both controlled by another isolation switch...
Loads (4xdouble, 1 single) of lovely sockets...I really agree more is better -and gives you greater flexibility -eg where I planned my countertop microwave was going didn't work as well as I thought but I could easily move it...)
I also had wiring for an extractor fan and worktop/undercupboard lights.
(and an outside security light and socket fitted.)
I'm up in Scotland - I think things here are relatively cheap and I was quoted about £1600 for the whole job....
(when he found out how much I had been quoted my brother came 300 miles to do the job for me for less)..
I know the quote will depend on how far away the consumer unit is and the size of the kitchen and whether they can go through the floor but I'm guessing that should give you a ball park figure....I know it could have been done more cheaply -but I don't intend to go through it all again for a good few years and am happy with my decisions
Hope that helps and good luck...