jono_h said:
I was thinking in around £40 - 45k completed.
Most others on here seem to think I have no chance tho....
Any advice?
New Extension, comments on costs estimated so far.....
- Thread starter Paul_Thomas
- Start date
I was thinking in around £40 - 45k completed.
Most others on here seem to think I have no chance tho....
Any advice?
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Can anyone give me an idea of the day rates for builders in the Midlands area?
Maybe this will help me better understand the quotations I am getting.
Maybe this will help me better understand the quotations I am getting.
paul, it's no good loosing sleep and crunching figures, it will drive you nuts.
once you have spoken to a half dozen builders and compared the quotes, you should by then have an indication of cost and a gut feeling of whom to pick for the job.
day rates start at around £120.00 per day per man for skilled and rise from there.
recommended builders are usually first pick, though this isn't always a guarantee.
once you have spoken to a half dozen builders and compared the quotes, you should by then have an indication of cost and a gut feeling of whom to pick for the job.
day rates start at around £120.00 per day per man for skilled and rise from there.
recommended builders are usually first pick, though this isn't always a guarantee.
noseall said:
I know exactly what you mean!
I am still waiting on a few quotes which I should have within the next week.
I am considering whether it would be more cost effective to get somebody to do the gorundworks (Sewage pipe and foundations/slab) and then get a seperate builder to do the shell and finally a roofer to do the roof.
Any thoughts on this approach? (More things to go wrong, cheaper/more expensive?)
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Too many cooks spoil the broth!
A decent builder will arrange and tie in all the various elements of the job (or should!) with different trades and suppliers to avoid delays.
Also many builders are wary of people who try to project manage jobs themselves as they can cause more problems than they solve and they may be pricing for this element. Another factor is the materials. A builder will be making some profit on the materials, but with his discounts he may still get the materials cheaper than you can. Why not try asking some builders to price on the alternative of doing the complete package through to where you want it?
A decent builder will arrange and tie in all the various elements of the job (or should!) with different trades and suppliers to avoid delays.
Also many builders are wary of people who try to project manage jobs themselves as they can cause more problems than they solve and they may be pricing for this element. Another factor is the materials. A builder will be making some profit on the materials, but with his discounts he may still get the materials cheaper than you can. Why not try asking some builders to price on the alternative of doing the complete package through to where you want it?
Thermo's said it all really.
Paul
As an experienced Project Manager with one of the largest UK employers (not specifically building trades), I’ve been watching this topic with interest; I’m also doing major renovation works on my own property & had the builders in from Sept. 2005 through January 2006.
The essence of any successful project is in the detail but I think your starting to get too hung up on it & I agree with thermo! Always endeavour to have only one arse to kick when things go wrong! To this end, get yourself a good builder to take on responsibility for all of the work you don’t intend doing yourself - but don’t make them dependant on anything your doing. When things go wrong (& they will) you then only have his arse to kick but always keep things in perspective & kick nicely! Make sure you start with an agreed & detailed spec/time scale as to what your expecting & don’t be unreasonable for the sake of it – there is always more than one way to solve a problem even if you end up in a trade off; as I did 3 times to my considerable advantage!
I don’t believe you will save that much by taking on the responsibility yourself, you can still monitor the work very closely but you will save yourself an awful lot of agro by not trying to manage people you don’t know. Local building trades (like any other profession) can be very suspicious of anyone they don’t know, particularly if you’re clearly an outsider & that can make a big difference to the level of co-operation you get! The biggest problem with trying to take it on yourself is you then take responsibility for co-ordinating everything & the classic scenario is that everyone always blames someone else for whatever goes wrong or for any inherent delay!
Good luck with your project, just get stuck in & (hopefully) everything else will follow naturally.
As an experienced Project Manager with one of the largest UK employers (not specifically building trades), I’ve been watching this topic with interest; I’m also doing major renovation works on my own property & had the builders in from Sept. 2005 through January 2006.
The essence of any successful project is in the detail but I think your starting to get too hung up on it & I agree with thermo! Always endeavour to have only one arse to kick when things go wrong! To this end, get yourself a good builder to take on responsibility for all of the work you don’t intend doing yourself - but don’t make them dependant on anything your doing. When things go wrong (& they will) you then only have his arse to kick but always keep things in perspective & kick nicely! Make sure you start with an agreed & detailed spec/time scale as to what your expecting & don’t be unreasonable for the sake of it – there is always more than one way to solve a problem even if you end up in a trade off; as I did 3 times to my considerable advantage!
I don’t believe you will save that much by taking on the responsibility yourself, you can still monitor the work very closely but you will save yourself an awful lot of agro by not trying to manage people you don’t know. Local building trades (like any other profession) can be very suspicious of anyone they don’t know, particularly if you’re clearly an outsider & that can make a big difference to the level of co-operation you get! The biggest problem with trying to take it on yourself is you then take responsibility for co-ordinating everything & the classic scenario is that everyone always blames someone else for whatever goes wrong or for any inherent delay!
Good luck with your project, just get stuck in & (hopefully) everything else will follow naturally.
Paul,
A few more points;
Write a specification for the builders to quote against and work to. Be pretty specific about what you want done, what finishes you want, and the details that are important to you but might go overlooked by someone else.
Once you've accepted a quote against your spec, be prepared to pay that amount of money for the work. Don't let the Builder take shortcuts that may suit him if it means the spec won't be met, but equally don't ask for something extra / different without being prepared to pay for it.
Secondly, it doesn't matter how many cups of tea you make or conversations about football you share, you are still the customer. Don't be afraid to tell them if you're not happy - they can't do anything about it if you don't tell them. I had a few conversations about minor stuff such as leaving their lunch rubbish lying around, and at one point I even told them not to come back on site the following week if they didn't get a move on (don't say it if you don't mean it though - I was lucky in that I could have finished myself)
Don't pay them for more work than they've done / materials have been delivered. Money up front shouldn't be necessary.
Finally don't be surprised if you can't stand the sight of them at the end of the project. They're going to be in your house for 12 weeks or so, making a mess, asking questions and wanting money. My builders only moved to a project next door, and I can manage to say hello and give them a wave, but I wouldn't want to see them back anytime soon.
A few more points;
Write a specification for the builders to quote against and work to. Be pretty specific about what you want done, what finishes you want, and the details that are important to you but might go overlooked by someone else.
Once you've accepted a quote against your spec, be prepared to pay that amount of money for the work. Don't let the Builder take shortcuts that may suit him if it means the spec won't be met, but equally don't ask for something extra / different without being prepared to pay for it.
Secondly, it doesn't matter how many cups of tea you make or conversations about football you share, you are still the customer. Don't be afraid to tell them if you're not happy - they can't do anything about it if you don't tell them. I had a few conversations about minor stuff such as leaving their lunch rubbish lying around, and at one point I even told them not to come back on site the following week if they didn't get a move on (don't say it if you don't mean it though - I was lucky in that I could have finished myself)
Don't pay them for more work than they've done / materials have been delivered. Money up front shouldn't be necessary.
Finally don't be surprised if you can't stand the sight of them at the end of the project. They're going to be in your house for 12 weeks or so, making a mess, asking questions and wanting money. My builders only moved to a project next door, and I can manage to say hello and give them a wave, but I wouldn't want to see them back anytime soon.
think of it this way. your house will be turned into a dust ridden, noisey building site for a good few months. Thats stressful enough, on top of that add interuptions to services at inconvenient times etc. Now add onto that the thought of doing the day job and running around to solve problems and get materials in for the builder on time. When he hits a snag you have to sort it out if you are project managing. Do you know who to go to to get the materials you need when the main suppliers you were using dont have it in stock? Add on top of that, that when he needs something at short notice he will hopefully have a good relationship with his supplier who will get him what he needs when he needs it. His supplier knows he will be a customer for years to come. The suppliers know you are a one off and wont be back after the projects finished.
Good luck!
Good luck!
I am 90% of the way through an extension project of a similar size. (Estimators on line = £53,000) Like you I had terrible trouble getting quotes from builders ... Those I did get in ignored my specs and desires and presented very unprofessional quotations (£40K to £72K). .... consequently I had no confidence in their ability to complete the job.
Left me with no alternative but to DIY. Fortunately, I have a mate with a digger and some good contacts (bricklayer, plasterer) who have worked on a day rate. The rest I have done myself.
The result?
1. Takes every second of the day you are not at work. If you aren't slaving away on the extension, you are researching on the internet, project managing or ordering parts. It is suprising what bargains you can get by shopping around / playing on ebay etc. Beleive me ... if you punt a decent project around the local builders merchants and negotiate, you will buy as cheaply as any local builder. However, it is really difficult being Bob the builder one day and in a meeting in the City the next.
2. The finish and specification is way ahead of anything I could have afforded or expected if I had subbed it to a builder. The building inspector told me it was the best floor he had ever seen!! You will work to your own standards and get more done in a day by working harder and longer than someone on a day rate in my experience!!!
3. Problems ... yes a few, but nothing significant. There was one dark week when we had no mains water and no drainage, but thet would have been the case if a builder was doing it? Ofcoarse it has taken longer. It will be 12 months end to end. I guess a decent builder would have nailed it in 12 - 15 weeks. The trick is to keep at least 4 weeks ahead of the project in thinking and ordering parts.
4. Looks like I will bring the project in at about £28 -30K (£24K todate)
Overall, your estimates look good to me.... perhaps a little generous. I was paying £130 for my bricklayer, £150 for my plasterer and always remained 20% down on the estimator on line parts prices.
5. Don't forget ... if you sub it out every little thing you add as you go along will cost you more. There are countless additions and upgrades we have applied as we moved through the project ... but they have typically only cost £50 + time each. Stuff like running a new water main back to the lane, raising the height of the oil tank by half a metre and upspecing the electrics. Most of my colleges who have been through a similar project have had more stress and dissatisfaction by using a builder!!!
Would I do it again? Damn right! .... Huge job satisfaction, but you do need an understanding family!
Left me with no alternative but to DIY. Fortunately, I have a mate with a digger and some good contacts (bricklayer, plasterer) who have worked on a day rate. The rest I have done myself.
The result?
1. Takes every second of the day you are not at work. If you aren't slaving away on the extension, you are researching on the internet, project managing or ordering parts. It is suprising what bargains you can get by shopping around / playing on ebay etc. Beleive me ... if you punt a decent project around the local builders merchants and negotiate, you will buy as cheaply as any local builder. However, it is really difficult being Bob the builder one day and in a meeting in the City the next.
2. The finish and specification is way ahead of anything I could have afforded or expected if I had subbed it to a builder. The building inspector told me it was the best floor he had ever seen!! You will work to your own standards and get more done in a day by working harder and longer than someone on a day rate in my experience!!!
3. Problems ... yes a few, but nothing significant. There was one dark week when we had no mains water and no drainage, but thet would have been the case if a builder was doing it? Ofcoarse it has taken longer. It will be 12 months end to end. I guess a decent builder would have nailed it in 12 - 15 weeks. The trick is to keep at least 4 weeks ahead of the project in thinking and ordering parts.
4. Looks like I will bring the project in at about £28 -30K (£24K todate)
Overall, your estimates look good to me.... perhaps a little generous. I was paying £130 for my bricklayer, £150 for my plasterer and always remained 20% down on the estimator on line parts prices.
5. Don't forget ... if you sub it out every little thing you add as you go along will cost you more. There are countless additions and upgrades we have applied as we moved through the project ... but they have typically only cost £50 + time each. Stuff like running a new water main back to the lane, raising the height of the oil tank by half a metre and upspecing the electrics. Most of my colleges who have been through a similar project have had more stress and dissatisfaction by using a builder!!!
Would I do it again? Damn right! .... Huge job satisfaction, but you do need an understanding family!
Thank you all for your advice and comments.
This is a unique project for me and one I do hope to enjoy!
We have spent probably 5 years on and off looking at the plans for this extension and I have been trying to get costs on and off for the past few months.
I have calculated out all materials and gotten local prices from Builders Merchants so that
1. I understand how the extension is constructed (I have drawn my own plans for Planning and Building Regs)
2. I have an understanding of the costs
3. I can calculate whether we can afford it
4. I can evaluate what bits I can do myself
Agreed it is now time to step back a little and give a Builder the opporunity to do his bit. I would like to appoint 1 Builder to do the sewage, foundations and shell. It may be that I use a seperate roofer for the cut roof and tiles (Depending upon expertise and cost).
Hopefully I will get the remaining quotes within the next week so I can start moving forwards on the project.
As a family we are aware it will be a big disruption, not least because the kitchen will be gutted and two walls removed! This will have to be my initial priority once the Builder has built a sealed shell and removed the walls. I seem to have little enough time as it is but the extension will have to take priority for quite a long time.
We really need an extension as we have 5 of us in a 3 bedroom house with our eldest lad only coming home on leave form the British Army (Yep 4 kids!). Moving is too expensive an option so a 'Cost Effective' extension seems to be the way forward.
I'll keep this thread updated once the prices are in......
Thanks
Paul
This is a unique project for me and one I do hope to enjoy!
We have spent probably 5 years on and off looking at the plans for this extension and I have been trying to get costs on and off for the past few months.
I have calculated out all materials and gotten local prices from Builders Merchants so that
1. I understand how the extension is constructed (I have drawn my own plans for Planning and Building Regs)
2. I have an understanding of the costs
3. I can calculate whether we can afford it
4. I can evaluate what bits I can do myself
Agreed it is now time to step back a little and give a Builder the opporunity to do his bit. I would like to appoint 1 Builder to do the sewage, foundations and shell. It may be that I use a seperate roofer for the cut roof and tiles (Depending upon expertise and cost).
Hopefully I will get the remaining quotes within the next week so I can start moving forwards on the project.
As a family we are aware it will be a big disruption, not least because the kitchen will be gutted and two walls removed! This will have to be my initial priority once the Builder has built a sealed shell and removed the walls. I seem to have little enough time as it is but the extension will have to take priority for quite a long time.
We really need an extension as we have 5 of us in a 3 bedroom house with our eldest lad only coming home on leave form the British Army (Yep 4 kids!). Moving is too expensive an option so a 'Cost Effective' extension seems to be the way forward.
I'll keep this thread updated once the prices are in......
Thanks
Paul
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